Iran has launched drones toward Israel, IDF spokesman Daniel Hagari said in a statement, in an attack that Tehran had promised to carry out after its embassy in Damascus was hit last week.
Remember, those numbers are from around 3-4 weeks ago. There isn’t any mechanism for continuing the count, which is why the number hasn’t changed as starvation kicks in.
Its going to be like Yemen where the official death count hovered around 4 thousand for years and then one day it was “oops it’s 400 thousand now, gee how did that happen?”
You’re forgetting something. 30% of those numbers from October 7th are Israeli military. And yeah it was bad that they killed so many civilians. But this number gets thrown around like they were on an unopposed rampage. Then there’s the fact that Israelis near Palestinian borders tend to be well armed and a picture of an actual fight begins to emerge.
There’s also the fact that Israel’s response to 10/7 was tanks and helicopters. Hamas didn’t level any kibbutz’s, the IDF did, because Hamas was there. Any kibbutzniks who died from friendly fire were blamed on Hamas.
Most of the Israelis who live near Gaza are peace activists and environmental activists who live there to help build peaceful relations with Palestine.
Yeah I just don’t buy that. There’s obviously some but the overwhelming narrative of border communities in Israeli newspapers seems to have been a fear of exactly this happening.
The guerilla doesn’t need to win, just not lose. The correct response if you actually want to end the fighting is to attack the Idea. Which turns out to be a careful balancing act of of fighting radicals while respecting and helping the local population.
You are describing the American response to the Taliban. I suspect Israel saw what happened in Afghanistan and decided that it wasn’t the “correct response” after all.
It’s a bit more than just that. If you look at successful counter insurgencies throughout history then you see it’s the defining trait. Afghanistan is an example of what happens when you try to change the culture at the same time, have a corrupt reporting chain that doesn’t report failure, and the enemy can hide in the next country over. You can do everything right and still lose, and we didn’t do everything right.
Still, I’m not sure if Israel is even performing a counterinsurgency operation. Hamas was in control of the government of Gaza, after all. This may have more in common with a regime change, or some hybrid of the two.
Regime change can be counter insurgency too though if the people liked their government. Imagine if the US Army sucked and Russia occupied the US. They’d have to fight an insurgency too. So there’s a lot of crossover. In both cases you treat civilians as gently as possible.
It has nothing to do with the numbers being proportional on two sides. It’s whether the military response is proportional to the military goal. The military goal in this case is the defeat of an embedded terrorist organization and return of hostages.
By that definition Israel is failing to meet its military goal. Killing SO MANY innocent civilians would be considered a military failure by any other western county.
Unless the goal is collective punishment and not proportional warfare.
Yup, a total failure. They’re currently at -2. They’ve rescued no hostages and killed two “by accident”. The only time Israel got hostages was when the military was put on a leash during a ceasefire and they traded some of their own Palestinian hostages.
Israel does not keep or have Palestinian hostages.
You are trying to establish a moral equivalence between kidnapping civilians from their homes and arresting suspected or convicted criminals. They are not the same thing and equating them only muddies the waters on the real underlying issues.
Israel has thousands of Palestinians in “administrative detention” that have not been accused of any crimes. Using a fancy word doesn’t make them not hostages. You are right that falsely imprisoning thousands of people over a long period of time as part of a standing policy of oppression is not the same as having 50 one time hostages. It’s way worse.
Dozens, maybe as many as 100. There were only about 200 taken to begin with. Hamas gave back more than a third, and Israel has murdered at least several, that we know of. So sure, bicker about that number and give no fucks about the THOUSANDS of hostages Israel is keeping with no plans to release.
Lmao, no. Holding people without charges is kidnapping them and that’s the best interpretation. The words State Sponsored Terrorism exist for a reason.
This is exactly what I mean by muddying the waters. Israel clearly has an extremely damaged criminal justice system, but those underlying systems are not going to be addressed as long as the world refuses to acknowledge them.
When you have activists who only understand half the story decrying Palestinian “hostages,” they draw focus away from where it’s needed. Israel needs serious criminal justice reform, but that is now than ever from happening.
While it is impossible to have an accurate count, the best estimates are that about 1/3 of those killed have been combatants. The UN estimates 90% civilian casualties across all wars. The Iraq war was similar in that it involved urban, embedded terror groups and modern technology. The civilian casualty ratio was 77%. This war is in line with other conflicts of the past 50 years.
It is still a terrible tragedy. War is always a tragedy.
The Iraq war was fought against a standing military. The follow-on counter insurgency was far less lethal to civilians. Call us when Hamas is running T-80 Tank Divisions.
The people that told you that are mentally insane, so you know. I know it feels good to have a rationalisation and that they seem reasonable. but they are emotionally immature men that have traumas preventing them from growing up correctly and now they are in a psychosis.
No, nothing about any one killing anyone is about a military target goal. It’s not justified to do these things. Just like it was and is not justified by the terrorists to do them. Stop being a fool really that thinks this is normal to do, to slay an entire people. What the fuck man.
You are not upset with me, you are upset with the definition of a word.
Obviously we all want a peaceful world, but when you have a group like Hamas that believe their god wants them to kill anyone who is not their form of extremist religion, how can you end violence without eliminating them? Israel tried for decades to avoid this type if direct conflict. That avoidance cost them and led to the deadliest day in all Israeli history.
There are literal international laws, and people who spend their entire life around the science of proportional military action. It’s so much more than a word you can define.
It is after a genocide people wonder what the fuck happened. But a few wonders right the fuck now what the fuck is happening.
Military petsonell over the world work with you know real horrible game theory politics considerations that are mentally insane and some of these military spheres has completely lost their shit and are currently spiraling into the TELLTALE TEXTBOOK definition of the cycle where they become destructive and the world suffers from the consequences for years.
It is repeating history. I don’t hate a word, I hate that you defend it with no objective partials
This is a war. What makes you think war is supposed to be proportionate?
How many American civilians were killed at Pearl Harbor? There were 68.
How many Japanese civilians were subsequently killed by Americans? About 500,000.
Americans weren’t obligated to stop when Japanese civilian casualties outnumbered American civilian casualties. They were only obligated to stop when Japan surrendered.
A “war” as you’re mentioning it is very different than what’s happening here.
Sure, in a total war, massive nation state war , if one side blunders and gets a whole army, or a whole city obliterated, that’s just war. (I’m not condoning or calling for total war, anywhere. Just explaining a difference)
Ah yes, Israel is just doing what the US did in Japan, Korea, and Vietnam. Very apt comparison.
Also the US killed way more that 500,000 Japanese civilians in WWII. Your just counting the atom bombs. We had leveled multiple cities with conventional and fire bombs before that.
Ok, sure Hamas attacked, kidnapped and killed civilians, with 1200+ killed and another 5000+ injured.
Israel retaliated by killing 13,000+ kids and 8,000+ women, with 33,000+ killed since then.
I’d say that’s a disproportionate response.
Remember, those numbers are from around 3-4 weeks ago. There isn’t any mechanism for continuing the count, which is why the number hasn’t changed as starvation kicks in.
We would have those numbers if Israel didn’t shoot at the aid agencies responsible for measuring and countering food insecurity.
Its going to be like Yemen where the official death count hovered around 4 thousand for years and then one day it was “oops it’s 400 thousand now, gee how did that happen?”
You’re forgetting something. 30% of those numbers from October 7th are Israeli military. And yeah it was bad that they killed so many civilians. But this number gets thrown around like they were on an unopposed rampage. Then there’s the fact that Israelis near Palestinian borders tend to be well armed and a picture of an actual fight begins to emerge.
There’s also the fact that Israel’s response to 10/7 was tanks and helicopters. Hamas didn’t level any kibbutz’s, the IDF did, because Hamas was there. Any kibbutzniks who died from friendly fire were blamed on Hamas.
Most of the Israelis who live near Gaza are peace activists and environmental activists who live there to help build peaceful relations with Palestine.
Yeah I just don’t buy that. There’s obviously some but the overwhelming narrative of border communities in Israeli newspapers seems to have been a fear of exactly this happening.
Your proof of this?
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Its not like Gazans were able to get to know their neighbors outside of the prison.
a little guy attacking a big guy needs to expect a big response. it’s moronic to believe anything else
The guerilla doesn’t need to win, just not lose. The correct response if you actually want to end the fighting is to attack the Idea. Which turns out to be a careful balancing act of of fighting radicals while respecting and helping the local population.
This is… Not that.
You are describing the American response to the Taliban. I suspect Israel saw what happened in Afghanistan and decided that it wasn’t the “correct response” after all.
It’s a bit more than just that. If you look at successful counter insurgencies throughout history then you see it’s the defining trait. Afghanistan is an example of what happens when you try to change the culture at the same time, have a corrupt reporting chain that doesn’t report failure, and the enemy can hide in the next country over. You can do everything right and still lose, and we didn’t do everything right.
Fair enough.
Still, I’m not sure if Israel is even performing a counterinsurgency operation. Hamas was in control of the government of Gaza, after all. This may have more in common with a regime change, or some hybrid of the two.
Regime change can be counter insurgency too though if the people liked their government. Imagine if the US Army sucked and Russia occupied the US. They’d have to fight an insurgency too. So there’s a lot of crossover. In both cases you treat civilians as gently as possible.
Proportional response would have been to storm gaza and rape, torture and murder 1200+ palestinians - mostly civilians.
Nah their overall idea was fine. The execution of it is so bad it’s a war crime.
That’s not what proportional warfare means.
It has nothing to do with the numbers being proportional on two sides. It’s whether the military response is proportional to the military goal. The military goal in this case is the defeat of an embedded terrorist organization and return of hostages.
By that definition Israel is failing to meet its military goal. Killing SO MANY innocent civilians would be considered a military failure by any other western county.
Unless the goal is collective punishment and not proportional warfare.
Yup, a total failure. They’re currently at -2. They’ve rescued no hostages and killed two “by accident”. The only time Israel got hostages was when the military was put on a leash during a ceasefire and they traded some of their own Palestinian hostages.
Israel does not keep or have Palestinian hostages.
You are trying to establish a moral equivalence between kidnapping civilians from their homes and arresting suspected or convicted criminals. They are not the same thing and equating them only muddies the waters on the real underlying issues.
Israel has thousands of Palestinians in “administrative detention” that have not been accused of any crimes. Using a fancy word doesn’t make them not hostages. You are right that falsely imprisoning thousands of people over a long period of time as part of a standing policy of oppression is not the same as having 50 one time hostages. It’s way worse.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap
50?
Dozens, maybe as many as 100. There were only about 200 taken to begin with. Hamas gave back more than a third, and Israel has murdered at least several, that we know of. So sure, bicker about that number and give no fucks about the THOUSANDS of hostages Israel is keeping with no plans to release.
Lmao, no. Holding people without charges is kidnapping them and that’s the best interpretation. The words State Sponsored Terrorism exist for a reason.
This is exactly what I mean by muddying the waters. Israel clearly has an extremely damaged criminal justice system, but those underlying systems are not going to be addressed as long as the world refuses to acknowledge them.
When you have activists who only understand half the story decrying Palestinian “hostages,” they draw focus away from where it’s needed. Israel needs serious criminal justice reform, but that is now than ever from happening.
I have an idea about how they could start, stop detaining people for no reason and holding them for years without charge.
Okay, so now you are beginning to clarify instead of obfuscate.
You’ve identified a problem with policing; unjust detainment. That’s something that deserves attention. You can donate here to help.
I doubt it.
Western countries understand that ninety percent of war-time casualties are civilians.
Is your argument that the UN considered 90% civilian casualties as a successful mission?
No, my argument is that Western armies consider that the expected casualty rate for wartime.
The UN prefers zero casualties, and also zero war. But Western armies rarely live up to UN ideals.
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Argument made by an antisemitic genocide justifier.
Nazis are in vogue again.
I disagree, but at least you are understanding the correct meaning of proportionality and we can have a discussion.
What about my statement do you disagree with?
While it is impossible to have an accurate count, the best estimates are that about 1/3 of those killed have been combatants. The UN estimates 90% civilian casualties across all wars. The Iraq war was similar in that it involved urban, embedded terror groups and modern technology. The civilian casualty ratio was 77%. This war is in line with other conflicts of the past 50 years.
It is still a terrible tragedy. War is always a tragedy.
50 years is a long time, improved technology should reduce civilian casualties not keep them in line.
Iraq was a military failure, Israel’s assault on Gaza is a military failure, and the world needs to recognize it.
True. Unfortunately, I’m not sure that we have yet seen what a military success looks like in the Middle East.
Leaving the middle east, as politically caustic as the idea may be, its the only viable path to military success in the region.
The Iraq war was fought against a standing military. The follow-on counter insurgency was far less lethal to civilians. Call us when Hamas is running T-80 Tank Divisions.
“Let me just gaslight you with my definition”
So you’re perfectly fine with the ongoing civilian death toll?
The people that told you that are mentally insane, so you know. I know it feels good to have a rationalisation and that they seem reasonable. but they are emotionally immature men that have traumas preventing them from growing up correctly and now they are in a psychosis.
No, nothing about any one killing anyone is about a military target goal. It’s not justified to do these things. Just like it was and is not justified by the terrorists to do them. Stop being a fool really that thinks this is normal to do, to slay an entire people. What the fuck man.
You are not upset with me, you are upset with the definition of a word.
Obviously we all want a peaceful world, but when you have a group like Hamas that believe their god wants them to kill anyone who is not their form of extremist religion, how can you end violence without eliminating them? Israel tried for decades to avoid this type if direct conflict. That avoidance cost them and led to the deadliest day in all Israeli history.
Huh? No.
There are literal international laws, and people who spend their entire life around the science of proportional military action. It’s so much more than a word you can define.
It is after a genocide people wonder what the fuck happened. But a few wonders right the fuck now what the fuck is happening.
Military petsonell over the world work with you know real horrible game theory politics considerations that are mentally insane and some of these military spheres has completely lost their shit and are currently spiraling into the TELLTALE TEXTBOOK definition of the cycle where they become destructive and the world suffers from the consequences for years.
It is repeating history. I don’t hate a word, I hate that you defend it with no objective partials
You said that very incorrectly. It’s not solely about numbers but numbers are absolutely a fundamental factor.
Ah… mod team here has allowed a hasbara into the mix - that explains a lot.
This is a war. What makes you think war is supposed to be proportionate?
How many American civilians were killed at Pearl Harbor? There were 68.
How many Japanese civilians were subsequently killed by Americans? About 500,000.
Americans weren’t obligated to stop when Japanese civilian casualties outnumbered American civilian casualties. They were only obligated to stop when Japan surrendered.
The Geneva Suggestions.
Who’s supposed to surrender? Theres no government, it’s not a war, it’s a massacre.
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A “war” as you’re mentioning it is very different than what’s happening here.
Sure, in a total war, massive nation state war , if one side blunders and gets a whole army, or a whole city obliterated, that’s just war. (I’m not condoning or calling for total war, anywhere. Just explaining a difference)
This is absolutely not that.
Two governments, Hamas and Israel, are shooting at each other.
That means it’s a war.
Nah.
Hamas is a political party not a government.
Hamas is the party in control of government of Gaza.
Yes, war crimes are good actually. More war crimes please! /s
Ah yes, Israel is just doing what the US did in Japan, Korea, and Vietnam. Very apt comparison.
Also the US killed way more that 500,000 Japanese civilians in WWII. Your just counting the atom bombs. We had leveled multiple cities with conventional and fire bombs before that.
No, I’m counting total casualties. Roughly 200,000 in all were killed by the atomic bombings.