Vincent Oriedo, a biotechnology scientist, had just such a question. What lessons have been learned, he asked, from Harris’s defeat in this vital swing county in a crucial battleground state that voted for Joe Biden four years ago, and how are the Democrats applying them?
“They did not answer the question,” he said.
“It tells me that they haven’t learned the lessons and they have their inner state of denial. I’ve been paying careful attention to the influencers within the Democratic party. Their discussions have centred around, ‘If only we messaged better, if only we had a better candidate, if only we did all these superficial things.’ There is really a lack of understanding that they are losing their base, losing constituencies they are taking for granted.”
“We have set ourselves up for generational loss because we keep promoting from within leaders that that do not criticise the moneyed interests. They refuse to take a hard look at what Americans actually believe and meet those needs.”
Hear me out, what if they try running an even more genocidal candidate.
Oh shit this might just work
To the Left, to the LEFT!
Pivot, PIVOT!
In a 2-party system why should Dems even bother trying to change themselves or how the party operates? I mean they are (or used to be anyway) guaranteed to be voted in again at some point in the future.
As for the last election imo they just didn’t look far enough ahead to see the danger of Trump 2.0. They dilly dallied around with dumb shit, only paying attention to billionaires, completely ignored Americans’ views on Isreal, showed almost zero interest in reigning in food/housing conglomerates’ profits, etc.
Trump got massive gains in several key demographics that are key to long term party success. Most notably Hispanics, which are closing in on the predominant demographic. The wins for men and non college educated people are also a problem, they aren’t as important, but you can’t afford to lose such large demographics by such a large margin.
While no Republicans have really shown to be able to maintain the a fervent base like Trump’s, it’s extremely risky to just trust that people will flock back to the Democrats in a future Trumpless election. A more palatable republican with 75% of Trump’s base could easily see a Reagan level landslide victory.
Honestly I think this article is completely wrong. I’m convinced modern elections are 100% based on vibes and so better messaging and a better candidate would have meant a great deal.
But to add to that - Trump and his idiot base had been messaging and memeing for four years starting with Covid and masks and then inflation and ‘I did that’ stickers of Biden at the gas pump. Biden had barely done any messaging even up until the point he dropped out which, in the social media era, should be obviously big fucking warning signs of a losing campaign.
EDIT - which is not to say I don’t think the Dems need to change in other ways because they absolutely do.
Seriously those gas station “I did that” stickers were an actual grass roots movement, and it’s part of why Trump won.
A lot of people vote based on their wallets. If you’re worse off after 4 years, then why vote for the incumbent?
The Dems need to learn. Cheap food/gas/essentials, less outsourcing, less importing cheap labor, and lose the smugness. That’s what they need to do to win, and I don’t think that would mean abandoning much.
Less importing cheap labor means higher prices. Welcome to math. Americans expect no effort and lives of luxury because they’re at the center of an empire - except of course the ruling class increasingly reaps the rewards, and the money doesn’t recirculate into the economy due to how it’s structured, so we just slip into poverty. Neither major party will fix this, by design.
Except we weren’t worse off after 4 years because 4 years ago we had Covid, and now we don’t.
I don’t know what all these comments are about he said it perfectly.
They refuse to take a hard look at what Americans actually believe and meet those needs
And they won’t. Which is why they are a sunk cost. Ameicans will keep investing in it because it’s, “the only othe choice” and the party will lose again and again.
2016 was 8 years ago people and the DNC has not evolved in the least.
Winning is detrimental to the party.
At a certain point, they realized that they make more money when they lose. The end goal of both parties isn’t to win, it’s to make the most money for their members. The democrats just happen to have stumbled into a situation where they have a perverse incentive to fuck things up just enough to barely lose so that they can keep their funding up.
I think that the Liberal ideology, with a capital L, is what is being revolted and rebelled against at a very fundamental level by a majority of America. But the Democrats can’t see it,
There are actually people in here that say idiotic shit like “until democrats learn that they need to go low to win”.
Stop submitting to brainwashing that has you thinking the democrats are virtuous. It’s bullshit and you are ignorant and naive if you believe that.
“Go low to win”. Then Biden decided to die on the hill of support for genocide.
People want real fucking change. One man stood up against a massive evil health insurance company and regular people from all sides of the political spectrum support him.
Dems could have won if they were willing to do the same and no one would even need to be hurt to do it.
Naturally, there are a host of other problems mentioned in this thread. The trouble is that there is too much free $peech from the ruling class in politics.
They want us to think real change is impossible.
I think for people like me, the biggest fuck you was from Obama. He ran on hope and change. He ran on at least a public option. And he went into the office and literally shut down the ground operation that swept him into his position and then basically spent 8 years appeasing Republicans despite the fact that people wanted transformational change. That’s why they picked him over Clinton. He delivered Romneycare, bank bailouts, and drone wars.
Kamala was running on “Isn’t Trump a weirdo?”, but that was working so she stopped.
The DNC does not want to win if it means causing actual change.
And when people wonder why it’s so hard to get out the vote, I think this is a key reason why. I’m old enough to have gone to Obama’s rallies, knock on doors for his campaign as a volunteer, vote for him and watch with joy as he won.
Hope and change. After the George W Bush presidency and the war on terror, it finally seemed like it was time for the pendulum to swing back.
And then every issue they came to the table with a position already in the center in hopes of appealing to the republicans who would then hold their breath and kick their feet and then it would slide further and further to the right until they were holding up romneycare as a progressive victory while also getting completely destroyed in the court of public opinion for passing romneycare.
I knew a lot of people that were very excited for Obama the candidate and completely disillusioned by Obama the president.
And I await the apologists to come out and tell me how he had to do it this way, they only had a super majority for a few weeks. Sure if the republicans have the slimmest majority they rewrite the tax codes and give away trillions to the wealthiest, and if they are in the minority they still somehow get their policies passed. But when democrats have power, well you see, government takes time. They can’t possibly just have the bill ready and call for a vote, you see, that’s just not how it works.
You can only tell people so many times. Vote blue and we promise this time, this time, we will make it better. I know last time we didn’t, but it was because of the blue dogs, or Joe Lieberman, or Joe Manchin. Sure, we have no plan to get rid of those people or other spoilers and we will doggedly support them in every primary… but somehow this time will be different.
And I await the apologists to come out and tell me how he had to do it this way, they only had a super majority for a few weeks. Sure if the republicans have the slimmest majority they rewrite the tax codes and give away trillions to the wealthiest, and if they are in the minority they still somehow get their policies passed. But when democrats have power, well you see, government takes time. They can’t possibly just have the bill ready and call for a vote, you see, that’s just not how it works.
Every single time!
I still find it frustrating to hear this line every single time. Like somehow every single member of congress during that time was hyper focused on the ACA bill, couldn’t have pushed for their own legislation to be pushed forward.
I’ve had plenty of wake up calls, and every time I do, someone calls me weird for the dog whistles becoming fog horns.
And I await the apologists to come out and tell me how he had to do it this way, they only had a super majority for a few weeks.
They will all be miraculously absent when Republicans change the senate rules to get rid of the filibuster.
I remember watching the debates during the Obama campaign and thinking “this guy is just as pro big business as the republicans”. The only candidate who was talking about the need to limit the political power of corporations/finance was Ron Paul.
I admit I just don’t see a path forward.
Is inflation the reason they’re upset at Democrats? The US had one of the lowest rates of inflation amongst the G7 (especially with food). Corporate greed drove much of the increase. Republicans are intent on removing any possible regulation that protects consumers, Democrats did what they could via the FTC, since they didn’t have enough senate seats to pass any meaningful regulatory laws.
Is wage inequality the reason? Reaganomics is the primary reason for that, Republicans have been blocking every possible improvement for it via control of the senate and the filibuster.
Is it Israel? Certainly I can see that one, but Republicans have been responsible for devastating Iraq and Afghanistan, and will probably walk us into a conflict with Iran.
What messaging can the democrats do that would overcome the unrelenting right wing propaganda machines? What policies can they adopt that they don’t already have? I just don’t see a way to reach voters like the ones in this article.
Until the Democrats learn to stop trying to go high when the bar has already been stapled to the floor, they will never win an election again.
voters aren’t swayed by morals, “presidential” energy, or formality, they’re swayed by fucking podcasts…
Until the Democrats learn to stop trying to go high
Or at least stop pretending that “we’re enabling a genocide. Shut up. You will be voting for us” is “going high.”
They’re trying to say they’re the good guys because they aren’t the bad guys…
Which isn’t true if they’re not going to stop the bad guys
I would have said they tried to stop one and turned a blind eye to the other (Russia, and Israel)
but I dont really think anyone in power truly gave a fuck about stopping Russia either, it was clear from the getgo that the plan was not to help Ukraine win, just make sure they dont lose.
While that’s true, choosing to vote for Trump, a third-party, or not at all is like saying, “I don’t like this ham sandwich and I don’t like my sandwich choices… so I’m going to eat this dog-turds-and-radioactive-glass-shards sandwich instead!”
This country is fucked.
I think a lot of the core of the Kamala base is just as out of touch as the Democratic establishment. The fact that the establishment can’t understand this outcome just demonstrates their ineptitude.
People are hurting, a lot. Real wage growth has been stagnant, people are having trouble making ends meet, the wealthy are richer than ever leaving the working class with less and less.
What do the Democrats do to actually improve peoples material conditions? Absolutely nothing. The CHIPS act and IRA are great for longer term problems, but does nothing to put more food on people table. Kamala had the gall to ignore the problem all together. The economy is great, look at the stock market! And her big economic plan? Tax breaks for small businesses and your first home purchase. That’s it. That’s their fucking cornerstone economic policy. That’s not gonna help the vast majority of people.
Then on the other hand you have trump. He tells everyone it’s the brown peoples fault everything sucks, so we will get rid of them (and, by implication, your problems). It’s their fault egg prices are high, just get rid of them and things will go back to the way things were. Of course the rich are the real problem, not immigrants or trans people or any other conservative boogie man, but Trump acknowledged the pain many working class Americans are under.
Now you can think to yourself, how would anyone believe that? Think about someone who’s working two jobs to make ends meet, they’re surrounded by Fox news, all their family is Republican. They were raised in the public education system (half the country can’t read at a 6th grade level) and can’t parse the details of domestic economic policy, but Trump says it’s the brown peoples fault. Finally they felt seen and acknowledged. They remember the Trump stimulus checks. They remember the tax break (even if it’s temporary, they won’t look too closely and notice it’s permeant for the rich).
You know how Democrats win? By bringing back the party of FDR and really championing the working class. Thanks to citizens united we will never see that again, but it’s quite easy to understand their loss against trump. There’s only one issue, and thats class conflict. Until the Democrats stop serving their corporate donors they will never win again as it’s too easy for Republicans to acknowledge working class pain and scapegoat marginalized people.
You know how Democrats win? By bringing back the party of FDR
At this point, I’d expect them to bring back Japanese internment camps and nothing else. I’d say redlining too, but that would involve having a housing program to be discriminatory with.
You’re missing the lesson too, ironically.
The voters didn’t like what the Democrats were offering them, they wanted change, and they wanted it badly enough that they went ahead and ate that dog-turd-and-glass-sandwich.
You’re saying “they shouldn’t have eaten that, the sandwich the Democrats were offering was better.” Okay, well, they did it anyway. So you’re wrong. The Democrats were wrong. They’ve been wrong multiple times now. They’re doing the “Am I so out of touch? No. It’s the voters who are wrong.” Meme.
America’s a democracy. The voters aren’t wrong, as much as you might personally disagree with their choice. If you want a different government you have to offer them one that they’ll vote for. That may require some compromises, but that’s part of democracy.
I hope that they get it this time. This is the second time in recent memory that they’ve made this mistake. Even Biden’s election was closer than it should have been. I really hope that the DNC gets its head out of its ass and cleans house, but articles like this are disheartening.
I live in a deep blue state. Family is all very blue. They have learned absolutely nothing. They all think what the Democrats did was perfect. Kamala was flawless. She didn’t get elected because America is racist AND sexist.
They genuinely believe that there was nothing they could have done to improve.
I think they are gonna have to learn this lesson a few more times before they pull their heads outta their ass finally. I hope.
She didn’t get elected because America is racist AND sexist.
This talking point is just so Democrats have an excuse to keep AOC out of the 2028 race in favor of some centrist turd barge.
The blue bubble is as heard to burst as the red bubble. My mom lives on msnbc. There is not a moment that its not on just like my dad lives on fox. They are completely in their own different worlds made of fiction. Dad thought there was no way Trump could loose to Biden just as my mom thought there was no way Hillary/Harris could loose to Trump. Both had no moment of realisation, no moment of reflection just disbelief that they live in a bubble. Its always someone else’s fault. Dad blamed the Democrats and mom blames the left.
To me it’s obvious that Chomsky was right about manufacturing consent.
MSNBC is liberal Fox News. They both are the circuses while the public is clamoring for breadcrumbs.
To me it’s obvious that Chomsky was right about manufacturing consent.
Always has been.
It won’t happen. Every election in the last 25 years, including midterms, where the democrats tried to play to “moderate republicans”, they got wiped out.
You have to conclude that they’d rather chase after “moderate Republicans” and lose than chase after the left and win.
and they keep trying to dislodge “sane” republicans because they’d rather maintain centralized power than risk a grass roots movement distributing power to the masses. dyed in the wool democrats prefer fascism to meaningful reform
Obama was amazingly effective at the ballot box, but to the established Democratic power structure he was dangerous. Luckily for them he merged himself into their structure rather than maintaining his separate power base and taking on individual in-party resistors like Trump has, but it was a warning about what could happen and they took that lesson to heart. They do not want anything resembling another Obama.
Yep, that’s why Hillary was basically in control of the party via Debbie Wasserman-Shultz and how much the DNC effectively owed Clinton at that point.
People want to memory hole that aspect of it but it was 100% a response to the Obama presidency an attempt to grab a stranglehold on the party which she used to shut down Sanders and force her nomination. People often forget this is the same year the Republicans rejected Jeb Bush. America didn’t want Bush v. Clinton again, and Trump and Sanders were the only voices offering anything different. Democrats shut down their nascent progressive wing, and Trump just steamrolled the Republicans because he’s a fucking bully and those guys bend over and take it for bullies.
Her fascist border plan, embrace of genocide, and her running mate Liz Cheney were all great in their opinion? Wow. I need to talk to some Dems sometime.
I need to talk to some Dems sometime.
.world is here 24/7.
Well they don’t even have to decide they wanna eat a shit sandwich- they just have to not be motivated enough to go to the polls and say “I’d like the snot sandwich instead of the shit sandwich, please”. Which is what seems to have happened this election as best I’m aware
A lot of democratic voters weren’t motivated, and didn’t show up. And I agree with the statement made by the person quoted in the post, a huge part of that feels like it’s the democratic party’s complete unwillingness to criticize moneyed interests and figure out how to actually appeal to their constituency, and so they’re loosing people. And now we’re all stuck with that shit sandwich.
My concern with statements like this is that I don’t think your considering the impact that misinformation had on this election.
There were massive disinformation campaigns that had sizable effects on the dialogue that people had with their friends and neighbors. I’m worried that we could have actually put someone like Bernie as our nominee and that we still would have lost because of exactly this misinformation.
The Democrat message wasn’t making it to people and I think that it really shows…
Don’t deny voters their agency by saying they can’t make wrong choices. They can and did. They made a stupid choice for idiotic reasons, and will get nothing but suffering for it. There are situations in life where feeling deeply and unconditionally ashamed of your own idiocy is the correct course of action, and this is one of them.
Voters have agency. Let’s tell them how they will be voting and do nothing to appeal to them.
If they were too insignificant to listen to, they are too insignificant to blame. Your party lost because your party is shit on purpose.
I voted for Harris and of course Trump is worse, so spare me the only talking point any of you have.
If only someone, or a group of like minded thinkers, had predicted this exact social course and offered another course that actually has ideological solutions for capital interests fucking over everything in their quest for more money and power!
Too bad RCV is moving so slowly
Can’t imagine why politicians would be hesitant to mess with a system that put them in power.
Oh man that would be incredible. I’d actually be vaguely satisfied with my choices on the ballot.
Doesn’t matter anymore. I was gonna type “but genocide Joe” every time trump fucks over in some way the people who had a chance to vote for Kamala. But in the end, unity is far more important, division is how putin disarticulated his opposition.
I was gonna type “but genocide Joe” every time trump fucks over in some way the people who had a chance to vote for Kamala.
That would be a great demonstration that you have learned nothing.
Speaking of the Democrats setting themselves up for failure, if the Gaza ceasefire holds Trump will take care for it and Michigan will likely be solid red for at least a generation, not unlike Florida after Obama improved relations with Cuba.
Maybe that will happen. But I think it’s far more likely that Trump will end the genocide by letting Netanyahu finish it. And I don’t really see his administration doing anything other than alienating American Muslims, since he’s certainly not going to protect them from his followers. He’ll probably egg them on.
That said, Biden could have at least pretended to care about Gaza, and didn’t, so a lot of Michigan voters are pretty fed up with the Democrats, and maybe they’ll throw their support wholeheartedly behind the Republicans. I don’t see how that will get them anything they want, but they wouldn’t be the first, and they won’t be the last, group of voters who steadfastly vote against their own self interest.
And I don’t really see his administration doing anything other than alienating American Muslims
Unlike last time, Democrats aren’t going to be able to credibly pretend that they have American Muslims’ backs.
I think we’re at or close to the point where people just don’t want another fucking corporate neoliberal in charge, and most of them don’t have enough to lose to justify holding their nose to vote for more of the same. Unless the DNC does something different I expect it’s just going to go to the Republicans for the foreseeable future.
Trump has so many problems. But he can at least claim he’s going to be something different, which Harris and Clinton did not.
I’m referring to this. Trump surprisingly had a lot with this most recent ceasefire, and even if he didn’t he’d take credit for it. I don’t see him forging good relations with American Muslims, but in the future I think we’ll see the GOP campaigning based on the (real or otherwise) accomplishment of bringing peace to Gaza. And when the alternative is the DNC… Yeah.
by letting Netanyahu finish it
That seems kinda unrealistic, no?
Roughly 50,000 (perhaps upwards of 70k) Palestinians have been killed in a little over a year, and if anything, the rate is slowing. The population of Gaza and the West Bank sums to about 5,000,000. The growth rate in 2022 was conservatively 1.75%. That amounts to 87,500 new people every year.
Even when you factor in Israel targeting hospitals and food to try to hurry the genocide along, it’d still take decades, if ever.
Just gonna say that the numbers you’re using are direct casualties. When you include indirect casualties, such as the people who died to famine or disease due to conditions caused by the war you get numbers upward of 200k.
Counting deaths alone in Gaza and the West Bank ignores all the Palestinian refugees that have been forced to leave Palestine altogether; in either case, Israel wants to settle the rest of Palestine to cement their claim to it and control over it.
Ahh good point, it looks to be more of a 6% reduction in population if you include the 100k+ who’ve left.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/1/16/israel-hamas-ceasefire-whats-left-of-gaza-and-its-people
I’m certainly not denying that Israel’s intent is to settle Palestine. Just that they even have the capability to do so within the next 4 years.
To think that trump orchestrated or built that ceasefire is complete bullshit
Americans do think foreign politics are controlled completely by the American president.
When in reality, the president can only do as he pleases when there’s a genocide to outfit.
If liberals could learn they wouldn’t be liberals.
The voters are going to learn a lesson.
They didn’t last time. Maybe they’re getting what they wanted, and it’s the DNC that should be trying something different?
