I don’t want this to devolve into a long discussion about democracy in Ukraine, but even though Ukrainian soldiers might be defending their homes, Ukraine as a nation is defending it’s political system. If Ukraine surrendered immediately some people would still have been killed, some houses destroyed and some private property taken over by Russian oligarchs, but Putin wouldn’t have taken every single home of Ukrainian citizens. The Russian soldiers attacking the Ukrainian homes aren’t doing this because they want the houses but because they are forced, or at least brainwashed to do so because the Russian state wants control of Ukraine.
The main support should be of the Ukrainian and Russian people suffering from war, secondary that of Ukraine as a state as it’s current political system is better for it’s people than Russia’s.
Edit: Ukrainian soldiers aren’t actually actually able to attack the people that want Ukraine to be invaded (Putin), the treaties they signed with the western nations to get support forbids them from attacking targets on Russian territory, meaning they have to defend them against their invaders meatshields not against the invaders
I’m afraid there are a lot of historical examples of how things can go very wrong inside the country if the govt doesn’t like some specific group. So even ceding the whole country and becoming a part of the empire Russia might not have helped much
I’m confused, here you’re saying brainwashed soldiers but down below you’re saying that war crimes can only be committed by people that are inherently evil. How can it be both?
Never claimed they don’t. The Russian propaganda commonly demonizes and dehumanizes Ukrainian(-soldier)s. They also like to pretend that they are actually doing this for the Ukrainian people (like the US). Do you think that Russian soldiers commit war crimes because they are inherently evil?
Do you think that Russian soldiers commit war crimes because they are inherently evil?
yes, anyone who commits a war crime is an inherently evil person. a normal person, even during war, does not torture or rape someone. don’t try the nazi defense, that’s bullshit and you know it. if you have the choice of raping and murdering civilians, or being shot for refusing orders, and you choose to rape and murder, you don’t get a pass for just following orders. you’re still a rapist and murderer. you’re still evil.
That’s a dangerously naive mindset. Anyone can be tricked into committing war crimes. It isn’t just certain groups that are inherently susceptible. Normal people are very capable of atrocities. Fascism and of course capitalism specialize in incentivizing said atrocities.
please, tell us how you get tricked into raping and torturing people? is this like when men argue that the woman was tempting them? do you trip an fall out of your clothes and into the raping? I’m curious how you think people are “tricked” into something like that.
or if that’s too hard to answer, let’s use a different scenario. we’ve see videos of russians castrating captured ukranians. how do you trick somebody into doing that?
You’re not familiar at all with what propaganda is? What dehumanization is? What nationalism is? What capitalism is? That’s how.
How about I ask another question. Who specifically are the groups susceptible to war crimes. Point at them. Every single russian? How do you identify them? Every single American? Every single German? Every single British person? Every single person from sudan? War crimes and atrocities and the like are carried out basically globally by every people. You really think it’s just select people or do you think maybe it’s something that humans are susceptible to and we should guard against? Don’t be naive and assume you’re special.
those arguments are the same ones the nazis used to defend themselves at nuremburg. they didn’t work several decades ago, so what do you think has changed in the interim that makes them a good argument now?
Listen I say this is someone who’s looking out for your own good. I want you to educate yourself on how easy it is for fascism to infect people. Read They Thought They Were Free. Understand that Nazis weren’t comic book villains. They were for the most part regular people that fell for the grift. That went along with it cuz it was easy. That you couldn’t look at them and identify them by their evil eyes. Because people that think Nazis were some kind of comic book evil villain instead of regular people who did Evil are people who are going to fall for the same thing. They don’t understand how easy it is to fall for fascism. They’re the reason fascism has overtaken the world again. Because they think it couldn’t happen to them.
Let’s agree to disagree. We clearly have very different ideas on human nature and I don’t think either of us is an adequately educated physiological professional to hold a sensicle disscusion on the topic
we can agree that if you do these things, you are an evil person, or we don’t agree at all. I don’t really give a shit about what sort of justifications you wanna come up with, that’s just rape and torture apologia and if you do that, then you’re a bad fucking person too.
We do agree that one shouldn’t kill or rape people, however were we disagree is that you think that someone can’t do something without finding it wrong if they had an objektive look at the facts. Do you think someone shooting a dog that is attack ing their child is a evil person? Do you think the majority of people couldn’t be convinced that a certain group of people is subhuman, more similar to an animal perhaps, not be treated as a human? Do you not think that the majority of couldn’t be made believe that these subhumans are attacking your country men, practically your family?
To name a more harmless example: most people will continue to buy products even they know they are partially being manufactured by slaves, even if they know that the production conditions of these products cause many deaths, even though this isn’t a life or death situation for them.
Your idealism is honorable, however I think you expect to much from humanity
Do you think someone shooting a dog that is attack ing their child is a evil person?
how is that remotely on par with a war crime?
Do you not think that the majority of couldn’t be made believe that these subhumans are attacking your country men, practically your family?
pity you weren’t born several decades ago, I think your life’s calling would have been defending the nazis at Nuremburg. that’s the same argument they used to try to absolve themselves of personal responsibility for their war crimes.
It’s not, that’s the point. People are made believe that they are equivalent
pity you weren’t born several decades ago, I think your life’s calling would have been defending the nazis at Nuremburg. that’s the same argument they used to try to absolve themselves of personal responsibility for their war crimes.
The crimes the nazis committed are on a bit of different level than those committed by Russian soldiers, so please don’t relativize them.
To follow along with the point, I have on multiple occasions heard the sentenment expressed, most recently in a well known podcast(I can look for it if you want to), that World War II soldiers that killed German civilians aren’t that bad because the Germans were nazis. Ukraine government/military/parts of the population being nazis is common in Russian propaganda. Don’t you think those people could be convinced that it’s okay to kill Ukrainian civilians?
I don’t want this to devolve into a long discussion about democracy in Ukraine, but even though Ukrainian soldiers might be defending their homes, Ukraine as a nation is defending it’s political system. If Ukraine surrendered immediately some people would still have been killed, some houses destroyed and some private property taken over by Russian oligarchs, but Putin wouldn’t have taken every single home of Ukrainian citizens. The Russian soldiers attacking the Ukrainian homes aren’t doing this because they want the houses but because they are forced, or at least brainwashed to do so because the Russian state wants control of Ukraine.
The main support should be of the Ukrainian and Russian people suffering from war, secondary that of Ukraine as a state as it’s current political system is better for it’s people than Russia’s.
Edit: Ukrainian soldiers aren’t actually actually able to attack the people that want Ukraine to be invaded (Putin), the treaties they signed with the western nations to get support forbids them from attacking targets on Russian territory, meaning they have to defend them against their invaders meatshields not against the invaders
I’m afraid there are a lot of historical examples of how things can go very wrong inside the country if the govt doesn’t like some specific group. So even ceding the whole country and becoming a part of
the empireRussia might not have helped muchHow do you explain Bucha or Mariupol?
ah, yes, brainwashed soldiers have never done war crimes either. case in point: the united states.
I’m confused, here you’re saying brainwashed soldiers but down below you’re saying that war crimes can only be committed by people that are inherently evil. How can it be both?
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Never claimed they don’t. The Russian propaganda commonly demonizes and dehumanizes Ukrainian(-soldier)s. They also like to pretend that they are actually doing this for the Ukrainian people (like the US). Do you think that Russian soldiers commit war crimes because they are inherently evil?
yes, anyone who commits a war crime is an inherently evil person. a normal person, even during war, does not torture or rape someone. don’t try the nazi defense, that’s bullshit and you know it. if you have the choice of raping and murdering civilians, or being shot for refusing orders, and you choose to rape and murder, you don’t get a pass for just following orders. you’re still a rapist and murderer. you’re still evil.
That’s a dangerously naive mindset. Anyone can be tricked into committing war crimes. It isn’t just certain groups that are inherently susceptible. Normal people are very capable of atrocities. Fascism and of course capitalism specialize in incentivizing said atrocities.
please, tell us how you get tricked into raping and torturing people? is this like when men argue that the woman was tempting them? do you trip an fall out of your clothes and into the raping? I’m curious how you think people are “tricked” into something like that.
or if that’s too hard to answer, let’s use a different scenario. we’ve see videos of russians castrating captured ukranians. how do you trick somebody into doing that?
You’re not familiar at all with what propaganda is? What dehumanization is? What nationalism is? What capitalism is? That’s how.
How about I ask another question. Who specifically are the groups susceptible to war crimes. Point at them. Every single russian? How do you identify them? Every single American? Every single German? Every single British person? Every single person from sudan? War crimes and atrocities and the like are carried out basically globally by every people. You really think it’s just select people or do you think maybe it’s something that humans are susceptible to and we should guard against? Don’t be naive and assume you’re special.
those arguments are the same ones the nazis used to defend themselves at nuremburg. they didn’t work several decades ago, so what do you think has changed in the interim that makes them a good argument now?
Listen I say this is someone who’s looking out for your own good. I want you to educate yourself on how easy it is for fascism to infect people. Read They Thought They Were Free. Understand that Nazis weren’t comic book villains. They were for the most part regular people that fell for the grift. That went along with it cuz it was easy. That you couldn’t look at them and identify them by their evil eyes. Because people that think Nazis were some kind of comic book evil villain instead of regular people who did Evil are people who are going to fall for the same thing. They don’t understand how easy it is to fall for fascism. They’re the reason fascism has overtaken the world again. Because they think it couldn’t happen to them.
What on Earth are you babbling about?
Let’s agree to disagree. We clearly have very different ideas on human nature and I don’t think either of us is an adequately educated physiological professional to hold a sensicle disscusion on the topic
we can agree that if you do these things, you are an evil person, or we don’t agree at all. I don’t really give a shit about what sort of justifications you wanna come up with, that’s just rape and torture apologia and if you do that, then you’re a bad fucking person too.
We do agree that one shouldn’t kill or rape people, however were we disagree is that you think that someone can’t do something without finding it wrong if they had an objektive look at the facts. Do you think someone shooting a dog that is attack ing their child is a evil person? Do you think the majority of people couldn’t be convinced that a certain group of people is subhuman, more similar to an animal perhaps, not be treated as a human? Do you not think that the majority of couldn’t be made believe that these subhumans are attacking your country men, practically your family?
To name a more harmless example: most people will continue to buy products even they know they are partially being manufactured by slaves, even if they know that the production conditions of these products cause many deaths, even though this isn’t a life or death situation for them.
Your idealism is honorable, however I think you expect to much from humanity
how is that remotely on par with a war crime?
pity you weren’t born several decades ago, I think your life’s calling would have been defending the nazis at Nuremburg. that’s the same argument they used to try to absolve themselves of personal responsibility for their war crimes.
It’s not, that’s the point. People are made believe that they are equivalent
The crimes the nazis committed are on a bit of different level than those committed by Russian soldiers, so please don’t relativize them.
To follow along with the point, I have on multiple occasions heard the sentenment expressed, most recently in a well known podcast(I can look for it if you want to), that World War II soldiers that killed German civilians aren’t that bad because the Germans were nazis. Ukraine government/military/parts of the population being nazis is common in Russian propaganda. Don’t you think those people could be convinced that it’s okay to kill Ukrainian civilians?