And too many unfortunately play that role happily.
See? This is what I mean. If I just announced that I was Jewish to someone like you, you’d make me justify it by denouncing Israel. I shouldn’t have to do that. It should not be assumed that just because I’m a Jew, I support Israel. Frankly, that’s a form of racism.
Why not blame both? Why should they be trying to find out who’s who. If you found out someone was Turkish, would you immediately ask them if they supported Erdogan? If someone was Hungarian, would you try to find out if they supported Orban?
I don’t know if you’re an American, but how would you like it if, every time you met a non-American, you would have to announce that you don’t support Trump because they’re trying to “find out who’s who?”
During his presidency, yes. On a related note, when I would speak to someone in the UK during Boris Johnson, he would be careful to inject a bit of “Boris Johnson sucks, Brexit was dumb” to make his stance clear.
Related, they sometimes assume I not only own a gun, but I’m armed at all times like some old west cowboy, depending on how little they deal with Americans day to day.
How did I move the goalposts? I said from the beginning that it’s happened my whole life. If anything, the guy who talked about a few years of inconvenience is the one who moved the goalposts.
If you want something to justify yourself about for life, I have one:
“America is a continent with plenty of different countries, why do you people from the USA call yourselves ‘American’ like you owned the whole continent?”
Right, but my point is that there never has been a time in my life where someone hasn’t equated Jew and Israeli. I’ve had to defend myself against that since I was a teenager and that was the 1990s. And if people blame all Americans for the crimes of what is actually a minority of those Americans, then they shouldn’t do that either.
Yes. Europeans tend to think Americans get the government we vote for and that we must like Trump since he was the president and isn’t going away. It’s ignorant, but I understand that they have this notion and I will, out of compassion and tolerance, explain that I am not a deranged bootlicking reactionary and do not support forever war, Christian nationalism or corporate hegemony.
how would you like it if, every time you met a non-American, you would have to announce that you don’t support Trump because they’re trying to “find out who’s who?”
Yeah, except in the case of Jews, it’s “prove you’re not a Zionist.” So many times in my life. So many times. I have to prove I’m not a bad person because of something I can’t control and was born as.
This might be very idiosyncratic to how you engage with people or with whom. I’ve lived in the deep Midwest and in an east coast major city. My name is EXTREMELY jewish. I have literally never had to explain my position on Israel or zionism when introducing myself. If Israel comes up in conversation in one way or another? Sure, people have asked what my opinion is, as a Jewish person, on Israel or such and such events, but that’s pretty reasonable and I don’t think ever frontloaded with anything.
What can I tell you, other than to avoid the kind of people who take something about you, and turn it into an attack. Also don’t bring up the topic yourself unless you want to defend it, and —however hard it is— try to “not attribute to malice, that which is simple ignorance”.
There are also some rhetoric tricks you can use to return an attack, but you risk being perceived as a troublemaker.
I dont mean you personally, but organizations that claim to represent the jewish people in various countries. For instance the American Jewish Committee that claims Jews critisizing Israel would be antisemites and tries to have the UN comittees dissolved that adress the human rights situation in Palestine. Or a bit larger but slightly more moderate the World Jewish Congress, that wants “to enhance solidarity among Jewish communities throughout the world and, recognizing the centrality of the State of Israel to contemporary Jewish identity, to strengthen the bonds of Jewish communities and Jews in the Diaspora with Israel”
These organizations claim to represent Jewish people around the world and that they would be in favor of Israel and support Israel, especially in face of criticism.
Sure, and white supremacists claim to represent all white people. They don’t and no one should assume that just because you’re white, you’re a white supremacist.
Which i never did. You cannot deny the reality, that many Jewish people and organizations want to tie all Jewish people to Israel. It is the predominant view in the larger organizations, that are often recognized as spokespeople for the Jewish community in the respective country, continent or world.
I also find it wrong, that Israel is claiming to be representative of the Jewish people as a whole and having a lot of organized support for it. The voices to the contrary need to organize and make themselves heard.
And because of that, it’s justified for people to constantly expect me to prove I have no allegiance to Israel? Bullshit. I should not have to prove I don’t support apartheid just because I’m Jewish.
So non-Jews are not at fault at all for being bigoted? It’s all the fault of Israeli Jews? There’s no bigotry involved at all? That’s what you’re saying?
Did you miss the other commentors explaining why that’s the case? I personally don’t do that, but I can understand why others do. As usual, blame the politicians
See? This is what I mean. If I just announced that I was Jewish to someone like you, you’d make me justify it by denouncing Israel. I shouldn’t have to do that. It should not be assumed that just because I’m a Jew, I support Israel. Frankly, that’s a form of racism.
They’re saying you should blame Israel for that, not random people trying to find out who’s who
Why not blame both? Why should they be trying to find out who’s who. If you found out someone was Turkish, would you immediately ask them if they supported Erdogan? If someone was Hungarian, would you try to find out if they supported Orban?
I don’t know if you’re an American, but how would you like it if, every time you met a non-American, you would have to announce that you don’t support Trump because they’re trying to “find out who’s who?”
As an American, Trump is the first thing many of my European friends talk about
Yes, but do you have to justify yourself with half the Europeans you meet that you’re not one of the Trump supporters?
During his presidency, yes. On a related note, when I would speak to someone in the UK during Boris Johnson, he would be careful to inject a bit of “Boris Johnson sucks, Brexit was dumb” to make his stance clear.
Related, they sometimes assume I not only own a gun, but I’m armed at all times like some old west cowboy, depending on how little they deal with Americans day to day.
Oh, so not for your entire life. Seems like it’s a little different then.
Got any more goalposts you’d like to move?
How did I move the goalposts? I said from the beginning that it’s happened my whole life. If anything, the guy who talked about a few years of inconvenience is the one who moved the goalposts.
Well, of course I didn’t have to clarify I wasn’t a supporter of President Trump while he wasn’t President…
I pretty much have to be prepared for assumptions about any dubious American move in the global stage, and America makes a lot of dubious moves.
If you want something to justify yourself about for life, I have one:
“America is a continent with plenty of different countries, why do you people from the USA call yourselves ‘American’ like you owned the whole continent?”
Right, but my point is that there never has been a time in my life where someone hasn’t equated Jew and Israeli. I’ve had to defend myself against that since I was a teenager and that was the 1990s. And if people blame all Americans for the crimes of what is actually a minority of those Americans, then they shouldn’t do that either.
Yes. Europeans tend to think Americans get the government we vote for and that we must like Trump since he was the president and isn’t going away. It’s ignorant, but I understand that they have this notion and I will, out of compassion and tolerance, explain that I am not a deranged bootlicking reactionary and do not support forever war, Christian nationalism or corporate hegemony.
Half? No.
Closer to 98%.
Europeans are just as jingoistic as anyone else. And just as ignorant.
This is already the case.
Isn’t that how it works anyway?
Person A: “I am a [whatever]”
Person B: “What do you think of [some thing about “whatever” I’ve recently seen on TV, and is possibly the only thing I know about it]?”
Yeah, except in the case of Jews, it’s “prove you’re not a Zionist.” So many times in my life. So many times. I have to prove I’m not a bad person because of something I can’t control and was born as.
This might be very idiosyncratic to how you engage with people or with whom. I’ve lived in the deep Midwest and in an east coast major city. My name is EXTREMELY jewish. I have literally never had to explain my position on Israel or zionism when introducing myself. If Israel comes up in conversation in one way or another? Sure, people have asked what my opinion is, as a Jewish person, on Israel or such and such events, but that’s pretty reasonable and I don’t think ever frontloaded with anything.
Yea, that’s on the asswipe saying that. We get to meet them everywhere.
What can I tell you, other than to avoid the kind of people who take something about you, and turn it into an attack. Also don’t bring up the topic yourself unless you want to defend it, and —however hard it is— try to “not attribute to malice, that which is simple ignorance”.
There are also some rhetoric tricks you can use to return an attack, but you risk being perceived as a troublemaker.
The Israeli government doesn’t even represent all Israelis, let alone all Jews. Does represent the vast majority unfortunately
I dont mean you personally, but organizations that claim to represent the jewish people in various countries. For instance the American Jewish Committee that claims Jews critisizing Israel would be antisemites and tries to have the UN comittees dissolved that adress the human rights situation in Palestine. Or a bit larger but slightly more moderate the World Jewish Congress, that wants “to enhance solidarity among Jewish communities throughout the world and, recognizing the centrality of the State of Israel to contemporary Jewish identity, to strengthen the bonds of Jewish communities and Jews in the Diaspora with Israel”
These organizations claim to represent Jewish people around the world and that they would be in favor of Israel and support Israel, especially in face of criticism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jewish_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Jewish_Congress
Sure, and white supremacists claim to represent all white people. They don’t and no one should assume that just because you’re white, you’re a white supremacist.
Which i never did. You cannot deny the reality, that many Jewish people and organizations want to tie all Jewish people to Israel. It is the predominant view in the larger organizations, that are often recognized as spokespeople for the Jewish community in the respective country, continent or world.
I also find it wrong, that Israel is claiming to be representative of the Jewish people as a whole and having a lot of organized support for it. The voices to the contrary need to organize and make themselves heard.
And because of that, it’s justified for people to constantly expect me to prove I have no allegiance to Israel? Bullshit. I should not have to prove I don’t support apartheid just because I’m Jewish.
You shouldn’t HAVE to, in a perfect world. Unfortunately, the ones who are making it not a reality are the Jewish organizations
So it’s the Jews fault that all Jews have to justify to non-Jews that we’re not bad people? That’s what you’re really going with?
Bro everyone has been repeating this over and over:
No! It’s Israel’s fault.
Why are YOU blaming others for what Israel is doing to Jewish identity?
So non-Jews are not at fault at all for being bigoted? It’s all the fault of Israeli Jews? There’s no bigotry involved at all? That’s what you’re saying?
Did you miss the other commentors explaining why that’s the case? I personally don’t do that, but I can understand why others do. As usual, blame the politicians
No, I did not miss all the other commenters blaming Jews for antisemitism.