‘I stand with the Russian people against Putin and the oligarchs, bring your kids home with a quick stop in Moscow. I know damn well some of you fuckers remember how to be communist’ might beat it out.
I’d agree that the current political system of Ukraine is better for the workers there, however the is a conflict caused by the existence of capitalist nations. The soldiers dying wouldn’t fight if they weren’t forced to by their nations. Ukraine should be supported, but only in the sense of supporting a capitalist to get rid of the aristocracy
This was has a lot more to do with imperial domination than capitalism, and framing it as being caused by “capitalist nations” rather than “one specific imperialist warmonger, the invader” is questionable at best.
This is largely, though as you acknowledge not entirely, not a war fought over workers’ rights so much as the right of a sovereign people to choose their future.
Bad phrasing on my part. Russia obviously started this war, however it can only come to this because Ukraine and Russia exist as separate antagonistic nations and not because the people living in these regions hate each other so much that they have to go to war with each other. Russia shouldn’t impose a future on the Ukrainian people and they should be supported in defending their ability to do so, however the Ukrainian government shouldn’t be equated with the future Ukrainians want, it’s still a (partially) corrupt, capitalist government.
I don’t want this to devolve into a long discussion about democracy in Ukraine, but even though Ukrainian soldiers might be defending their homes, Ukraine as a nation is defending it’s political system. If Ukraine surrendered immediately some people would still have been killed, some houses destroyed and some private property taken over by Russian oligarchs, but Putin wouldn’t have taken every single home of Ukrainian citizens. The Russian soldiers attacking the Ukrainian homes aren’t doing this because they want the houses but because they are forced, or at least brainwashed to do so because the Russian state wants control of Ukraine.
The main support should be of the Ukrainian and Russian people suffering from war, secondary that of Ukraine as a state as it’s current political system is better for it’s people than Russia’s.
Edit: Ukrainian soldiers aren’t actually actually able to attack the people that want Ukraine to be invaded (Putin), the treaties they signed with the western nations to get support forbids them from attacking targets on Russian territory, meaning they have to defend them against their invaders meatshields not against the invaders
I’m afraid there are a lot of historical examples of how things can go very wrong inside the country if the govt doesn’t like some specific group. So even ceding the whole country and becoming a part of the empire Russia might not have helped much
I’m confused, here you’re saying brainwashed soldiers but down below you’re saying that war crimes can only be committed by people that are inherently evil. How can it be both?
Never claimed they don’t. The Russian propaganda commonly demonizes and dehumanizes Ukrainian(-soldier)s. They also like to pretend that they are actually doing this for the Ukrainian people (like the US). Do you think that Russian soldiers commit war crimes because they are inherently evil?
Do you think that Russian soldiers commit war crimes because they are inherently evil?
yes, anyone who commits a war crime is an inherently evil person. a normal person, even during war, does not torture or rape someone. don’t try the nazi defense, that’s bullshit and you know it. if you have the choice of raping and murdering civilians, or being shot for refusing orders, and you choose to rape and murder, you don’t get a pass for just following orders. you’re still a rapist and murderer. you’re still evil.
That’s a dangerously naive mindset. Anyone can be tricked into committing war crimes. It isn’t just certain groups that are inherently susceptible. Normal people are very capable of atrocities. Fascism and of course capitalism specialize in incentivizing said atrocities.
please, tell us how you get tricked into raping and torturing people? is this like when men argue that the woman was tempting them? do you trip an fall out of your clothes and into the raping? I’m curious how you think people are “tricked” into something like that.
or if that’s too hard to answer, let’s use a different scenario. we’ve see videos of russians castrating captured ukranians. how do you trick somebody into doing that?
Let’s agree to disagree. We clearly have very different ideas on human nature and I don’t think either of us is an adequately educated physiological professional to hold a sensicle disscusion on the topic
we can agree that if you do these things, you are an evil person, or we don’t agree at all. I don’t really give a shit about what sort of justifications you wanna come up with, that’s just rape and torture apologia and if you do that, then you’re a bad fucking person too.
But why are they and their friends being attacked? Are those attacking them doing it because they just don’t like them or because they are being told to by a state?
10 million reasons for one person to kill another maybe, but 10 million reasons for hundreds of thousands of people to fight each other with billions of dollars of weapons that aren’t created by states? I don’t think so, but if you know one please tell me. If you’re asking if I think there wouldn’t be any violence at all in communist or similar society, then no I don’t, but I think none at this scale
Well, I believe a stateless society would be capable of anything and more that a state would be. Why wouldn’t a stateless society be capable of creating unfathomably devastating weapons?
And wheres the line between the individual and the state? Maybe my family and I build weapons and wage war? Or my community, or a group of like-minded folks I met online. If you understand it for individuals, why not 50 people? 500? 50000? What is a state
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‘I stand with the Russian people against Putin and the oligarchs, bring your kids home with a quick stop in Moscow. I know damn well some of you fuckers remember how to be communist’ might beat it out.
I’d agree that the current political system of Ukraine is better for the workers there, however the is a conflict caused by the existence of capitalist nations. The soldiers dying wouldn’t fight if they weren’t forced to by their nations. Ukraine should be supported, but only in the sense of supporting a capitalist to get rid of the aristocracy
Wrong.
This war is purely due to imperialism and the genocidal mania of Putin.
It didn’t make sense for him to invade Ukraine, and supporting Ukraine shouldn’t be done “for capitalism”.
Support for Ukraine should be done because
This was has a lot more to do with imperial domination than capitalism, and framing it as being caused by “capitalist nations” rather than “one specific imperialist warmonger, the invader” is questionable at best.
This is largely, though as you acknowledge not entirely, not a war fought over workers’ rights so much as the right of a sovereign people to choose their future.
Bad phrasing on my part. Russia obviously started this war, however it can only come to this because Ukraine and Russia exist as separate antagonistic nations and not because the people living in these regions hate each other so much that they have to go to war with each other. Russia shouldn’t impose a future on the Ukrainian people and they should be supported in defending their ability to do so, however the Ukrainian government shouldn’t be equated with the future Ukrainians want, it’s still a (partially) corrupt, capitalist government.
ah yeah that checks out, fully agree.
Also in the very basic sense that they’re defending their homes from an invader.
I don’t want this to devolve into a long discussion about democracy in Ukraine, but even though Ukrainian soldiers might be defending their homes, Ukraine as a nation is defending it’s political system. If Ukraine surrendered immediately some people would still have been killed, some houses destroyed and some private property taken over by Russian oligarchs, but Putin wouldn’t have taken every single home of Ukrainian citizens. The Russian soldiers attacking the Ukrainian homes aren’t doing this because they want the houses but because they are forced, or at least brainwashed to do so because the Russian state wants control of Ukraine.
The main support should be of the Ukrainian and Russian people suffering from war, secondary that of Ukraine as a state as it’s current political system is better for it’s people than Russia’s.
Edit: Ukrainian soldiers aren’t actually actually able to attack the people that want Ukraine to be invaded (Putin), the treaties they signed with the western nations to get support forbids them from attacking targets on Russian territory, meaning they have to defend them against their invaders meatshields not against the invaders
I’m afraid there are a lot of historical examples of how things can go very wrong inside the country if the govt doesn’t like some specific group. So even ceding the whole country and becoming a part of
the empireRussia might not have helped muchHow do you explain Bucha or Mariupol?
ah, yes, brainwashed soldiers have never done war crimes either. case in point: the united states.
I’m confused, here you’re saying brainwashed soldiers but down below you’re saying that war crimes can only be committed by people that are inherently evil. How can it be both?
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Never claimed they don’t. The Russian propaganda commonly demonizes and dehumanizes Ukrainian(-soldier)s. They also like to pretend that they are actually doing this for the Ukrainian people (like the US). Do you think that Russian soldiers commit war crimes because they are inherently evil?
yes, anyone who commits a war crime is an inherently evil person. a normal person, even during war, does not torture or rape someone. don’t try the nazi defense, that’s bullshit and you know it. if you have the choice of raping and murdering civilians, or being shot for refusing orders, and you choose to rape and murder, you don’t get a pass for just following orders. you’re still a rapist and murderer. you’re still evil.
That’s a dangerously naive mindset. Anyone can be tricked into committing war crimes. It isn’t just certain groups that are inherently susceptible. Normal people are very capable of atrocities. Fascism and of course capitalism specialize in incentivizing said atrocities.
please, tell us how you get tricked into raping and torturing people? is this like when men argue that the woman was tempting them? do you trip an fall out of your clothes and into the raping? I’m curious how you think people are “tricked” into something like that.
or if that’s too hard to answer, let’s use a different scenario. we’ve see videos of russians castrating captured ukranians. how do you trick somebody into doing that?
Let’s agree to disagree. We clearly have very different ideas on human nature and I don’t think either of us is an adequately educated physiological professional to hold a sensicle disscusion on the topic
we can agree that if you do these things, you are an evil person, or we don’t agree at all. I don’t really give a shit about what sort of justifications you wanna come up with, that’s just rape and torture apologia and if you do that, then you’re a bad fucking person too.
Do you honestly think people wouldn’t fight to defend their country if not for capitalism?
I think people wouldn’t fight over countries if there weren’t any states
Ok, fine, but do you think people wouldn’t fight to protect themselves and their friends?
But why are they and their friends being attacked? Are those attacking them doing it because they just don’t like them or because they are being told to by a state?
Who cares why, there’s 10 million reasons why.
10 million reasons for one person to kill another maybe, but 10 million reasons for hundreds of thousands of people to fight each other with billions of dollars of weapons that aren’t created by states? I don’t think so, but if you know one please tell me. If you’re asking if I think there wouldn’t be any violence at all in communist or similar society, then no I don’t, but I think none at this scale
Well, I believe a stateless society would be capable of anything and more that a state would be. Why wouldn’t a stateless society be capable of creating unfathomably devastating weapons?
And wheres the line between the individual and the state? Maybe my family and I build weapons and wage war? Or my community, or a group of like-minded folks I met online. If you understand it for individuals, why not 50 people? 500? 50000? What is a state
Ok John Lennon