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- cross-posted to:
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She finds the whole idea absurd. To Prof Marci Shore, the notion that the Guardian, or anyone else, should want to interview her about the future of the US is ridiculous. She’s an academic specialising in the history and culture of eastern Europe and describes herself as a “Slavicist”, yet here she is, suddenly besieged by international journalists keen to ask about the country in which she insists she has no expertise: her own. “It’s kind of baffling,” she says.
In fact, the explanation is simple enough. Last month, Shore, together with her husband and fellow scholar of European history, Timothy Snyder, and the academic Jason Stanley, made news around the world when they announced that they were moving from Yale University in the US to the University of Toronto in Canada. It was not the move itself so much as their motive that garnered attention. As the headline of a short video op-ed the trio made for the New York Times put it, “We Study Fascism, and We’re Leaving the US”.
Starkly, Shore invoked the ultimate warning from history. “The lesson of 1933 is: you get out sooner rather than later.” She seemed to be saying that what had happened then, in Germany, could happen now, in Donald Trump’s America – and that anyone tempted to accuse her of hyperbole or alarmism was making a mistake. “My colleagues and friends, they were walking around and saying, ‘We have checks and balances. So let’s inhale, checks and balances, exhale, checks and balances.’ I thought, my God, we’re like people on the Titanic saying, ‘Our ship can’t sink. We’ve got the best ship. We’ve got the strongest ship. We’ve got the biggest ship.’ And what you know as a historian is that there is no such thing as a ship that can’t sink.”
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As others have already commented, not everyone can just leave. Also, if we could all leave, who would take so many USA immigrants?
Must be nice to be financially stable enough to run away.
I don’t know your story or your financial situation.
It is a sad reality that in the US there are literally millions who probably can’t leave even if it was life or death. But i feel like your comment directs your anger and pain towards those who are in at the very least a similar boat to you. Considering that she is an academic, I doubt she is rich, probably middle class at best. The billionaires stole from you, she is probably a victim of this system just like you.
She is lucky to be able to leave, but realistically she is probably just putting a much bigger weight on this issue than most and I would guess that she sees this as a life or death situation. I think that in a life or death situation, most people can afford to leave to Canada, this isn’t that crazy nor does it cost a fortune. It is true that not all people can, but I’m pretty sure that by far most can.
An academic who’s job is is to know these things is spending the money to do it. That’s the take away here. They’re the Canary in the Coal Mine.
Why would she flee to Canada? If she knows what happened in 1930s Germany then she knows what happened to their neighbours a few years later, right?
Suppose she can keep running
I don’t blame people for running, but personally I’ve always found that Fighting Fascism is a Fine Hill to Die On.
To be honest, I’d be perfectly willing to die on much smaller, less impactful hills. Some days I feel like dying in a valley, far away from anything, but then I see some real bullshit going on and get mightily pissed off.
What I’m saying is, dying isn’t the worst thing you can do in life.
Suits me fine too.
"I’m affluent with the privilege & means to escape when I know it’s going to go bad &, trust me, it’s going to get bad.
Anyways, good luck, suckers!"
She’s using her position to educate, raise awareness, and validate the alarm several people are feeling. This is possibly the most impactful thing she can do at the moment. She is standing up and pointing out fascism. I guess she could stay after having done that, but then you get people going “if it’s so bad then why don’t you leave?!” And then she’s at even more risk of being disappeared. She is uprooting her family and life and in the process displaying how sincerely she believes that we’re headed down the wrong path. Is she doing it for her own benefit, yea, sure, but this article imho is more impactful than her going to a protest. I’ve sent it to some of my more normie friends already because we were just talking about this and they really don’t realize how bad things are already. They think I’m fear mongering. This article might help people realize what the reality is and take direct action that they didn’t think was necessary at this point. Is it cowardly to leave? Maybe. But she didn’t have to speak out, she could have left quietly, but she chose to make a statement. That’s more than a lot of people will end up doing, regardless of if they stay or not.
This, exactly. And running to Canada. Like fleeing the coming Nazi Germany by emigrating to Poland. Congratulations, you accomplished almost nothing.
Almost nothing? Canada might be sliding itself but I’m pretty sure it’s still way safer than the US
I think the Poland reference was insinuating that the US might invade Canada.
Yeah, I get that, but being jewish in nazi germany was safer than being jewish in poland until the invasion. Which we don’t have a crystal ball to predict would happen to canada. Seems unlikely.
She did her part by educating us and it’s obvious she’ll be among the first to be targeted. It only makes sense that she should flee.
I, for one, am grateful that she spoke the truth in that NYT opinion piece.
Right? I don’t get people here mocking her for leaving. The first people to be removed or “disappeared” in fascists states are the bogeymen “others” - the foreigners, the ones that are easy targets and can’t fight back. The next ones are the obvious liberal dissenters. First the regular people, the scientists and liberal teachers, the students, then the liberal politicians. The smart people are always targeted.
She seemed to be saying that what had happened then, in Germany, could happen now, in Donald Trump’s America – and that anyone tempted to accuse her of hyperbole or alarmism was making a mistake.
I’d argue that it IS happening already
That’s a shit lesson to take from 33. My takeaway is don’t let the brown shirts win. I’m not running from my country with my tail between my legs.
Fascists can fuck off, in fact
707 millions just assembled to say just that.Edit: I didn’t think staying in my country of birth and fighting for freedom and decency would be such a hot button issue.
To all of you who felt the need to be condescending I’d just say tighten up and show some backbone. Real disappointing. So you may be shot and sent to a gulag. You wouldn’t be the first, probably not the last. Try not to let fear and righteousness dictate your feelings.
From the numbers that I have seen spread through social media, they were saying 12.1 million people showed up for the No King protest.
I’m not running from my country with my tail between my legs.
That sounds cool if your objective is to collect likes on social media. However, her objective is to save herself and her family from what’s coming. As “an academic specialising in the history and culture of eastern Europe,” she knows very well what it is. Only an ignorant and arrogant prick could say what you said.
If all the good guys leave then you lose your country though
What if everyone just left Poland during ww2? There wouldn’t be a Poland today
Nah, the Polish resistance was slaughtered by the Soviets anyways:
Most soldiers of the Home Army (including those who took part in the Warsaw Uprising) were persecuted after the war; captured by the NKVD or UB political police. They were interrogated and imprisoned on various charges, such as that of fascism.[226][227] Many of them were sent to Gulags, executed or disappeared.
Poland remained occupied for 45 years after WW2 and was forcibly “shifted” to the West causing millions of Polish people to be deported from their homes in the East.
The best decision any Pole could have made for themselves, their family and even their country was to flee. You won’t do anything for Poland if you die as a slave in Siberia.
Agreed
If you read the rest of the article, she addresses that. She doesn’t believe that she is personally brave enough to physically confront what is coming, so for her, the choice is get out now while she can and be vocal.
What a matter of fact way to express cowardice
My sentiments exactly.
What an armchair thing to say
I don’t think that’s true at all but even if it were, sitting in an armchair in America is more helpful than sitting in an armchair in Canada which is what this lady is doing.
It’s quite a silly thing to get all high and mighty about. You don’t have that person’s life or thoughts/feelings.
It didn’t sound high and mighty to me. She left a position of influence and (some small amount) of power just when shit is starting to get real. Fair weather patriot. Best of luck in Toronto. I’ll stay here with the hundreds of millions for whom leaving isn’t a viable option.
Uh ok
I don’t need to know anything about this person to know that leaving is the cowards choice. She’s telling everyone else who can’t leave that they aren’t as important and they have to sort this out without her. Don’t try to spin that as some sort of noble act. We win together or we lose apart. I don’t want to hear any lectures on history or morailty from people who would rather save themselves than help their fellow citizens.
You feeling personally attacked here isn’t the person’s fault, who, btw, I am not saying is doing something noble. Just pointing out how weird it is that you’re acting this way about it.
Much better to be self aware of it and account for it, than to get yourself and others killed due to your false bravado.
It doesn’t take much bravery to stand in a crowd with hundreds or thousands of other people.
Lol, you think this is going to end with just calmly standing in a crowd?
Probably not, but that’s the most that’s been asked of this lady so far and she couldn’t even muster the courage to do that. Running away before you make any attempt to fight for all the people who made you who you are is some weak shit.
Again, being aware of your own limitations and doing what you can is preferable to faking it, and falling apart when it counts.
Not everyone can be a super tough guy like you surely are.
As you sit in your armchair, couch warrior. Fucking cretin.
I’m here protesting and standing up to fascism and that’s where I’ll stay until this ends one way or another
You think you can call her a coward because you are protesting now? Oh boy, what you have now hardly qualifies as fascism. It aspires to be fascism, but it’s so, so mild. That doesn’t make you brave, that doesn’t make you better than her. Unlike you, she knows what’s coming next. I bet in 5 to 10 years, you’ll find out that you aren’t as brave as you thought.
Now who’s the arm chair captain?
I’m well aware of the potential outcomes of this situation and if anything that makes her decision more cowardly. Every person that leaves is telling those who can’t leave that their lives are less important, that I was on your side for as long as I believed it wouldn’t cost me anything to say so. That’s some fair-weather friend bullshit if I’ve ever heard it.
You can defend her decision if you like but I am choosing to stay and fight, whatever that ends up meaning, despite having the means and ability to leave and you will never convince me that that isn’t the decision every truly patriotic American should be making too.
Not sure where your getting that 70 million number, but according to Wikipedia it was some 5 million.
Not to criticize, but I think it’s important not to spread inaccuracies and over inflate turnout numbers like a certain someone likes to do.
Edit: Lemmy post with final count numbers on attendance. Looks like it’s a bit larger than initially thought, which is fantastic!
Another takeaway from that article: 7 of the top 10 were during Trump’s presidency.
Oh don’t you know? The media just has it out for him. For: illegitimate reasons we never have to talk about/s
It’s not like people have good reason to find trump uniquely terrible. TDS!!!1 /s
dang. what happened to the 11 million estimate i read about yesterday?
Depends on source.
Need about 11M to reach the supposed 3.5% “rule” which is near what 50501 was self-reporting.
Traditional media was reporting 5M to start and has slowly added more.
The Nazis did eventually lose, but look what it took to do it. Millions of people died on both sides. The best defense is to not allow them any power, but they already control the most powerful military in the history of the world.
At this point, leaving is a credible option, if you have it. Unfortunately, unless you are wealthy, have a large business, or are incredibly intelligent in a field they want, most of us won’t be welcome any where else.
The brown shirts have the keys to the kingdom, and so there’s no easy way to get rid of them. By my count they’ve already won, and will be able to do a depressing amount of damage before anyone could hope to stop them. If you’re a vulnerable group who has the opportunity to leave and isn’t ready to die fighting, leaving is the safest bet.
I mean that’s certainly fair, but with the vast majority of America either supporting the fascists or dragging its feet (cue “we can’t give them an excuse to do a fascism!!!”) “fuck this shit I’m outta here” is, honestly, pretty valid.
But going peacefully on the streets is only successful if the government you want to send a message to is listening, i.e. if it either cares for their citizens or is in any way rational.
I hope I’m wrong here, but I can’t see anything changing for the better in your country. It currently looks like 70 million people trying to talk through a knife fight.
Eh, Trump’s stupid enough to openly oppose peaceful protest. And Americans seem to have a reaaaally short fuse when someone physically spits them in the face.
Soon, they won’t be so peaceful.
I had this hope too, but he already went light-years too far and all I read is “soon …”.
I’m generally against violence, but I really hope you guys do something over there…
Are you a professor in the field? No? Then fuck the fuck off.
Your usage of “70 million” is a cope just like her “checks and balances”. There was nowhere near that amount of people. Not even 10 million. The protests were largely cancelled because of the political assassination.
I looked for photos of protests and the ones I saw did not have anywhere near these amounts of people. A few hundred to a couple thousand at any one city. America is very okay with fascism.
You’re correct that 70 million is a large overstatement, but wrong about the rest
https://www.yahoo.com/news/no-kings-biggest-protest-u-172552711.html
Bullshit. Only Minnesota cancelled protests during the manhunt for the conservative political assassin and tens of thousands showed up in the Minnesota capital anyway. And in other Minnesota cities and villages as well. Estimates range from 25,000 to 80,000 depending on the source. And it had no effect at all on anywhere else in the country. In Salt Lake City Utah an innocent protestor was killed by security shooting at a different man who they say had grabbed a gun and headed towards protesters and still 10,000 people marched there, in one of the most Republican states in the Union.
Seventy million is probably an exaggeration but your numbers are contradicted with thousands of news pictures taken from marches big and small across the country. And many more didn’t even make the news, like the one at the VA Center in West Los Angeles where I saw men waving a huge California flag and a banner saying SEMPER FI TO THE CONSTITUTION! DUMP TRUMP! as all the cars across 6 lanes of traffic honked in support.
And for clarification, the Minnesota protests weren’t cancelled. The governor merely told people to stay home while the police searched for the assassin, but they showed up at the Capitol anyway. Some of the government officials cancelled, but there were still some who showed up and spoke anyway, because Minnesota doesn’t let MAGA terrorists dictate what they do.
Because lying about the number of protesters helps your case, somehow? Fucking lunatics.
Problem is, Canada has strict immigration laws, so I assume she 1. used her prestigious degrees and CN accepted her immigration immediately for a teaching job or 2. she is there illegally for the next 5 years (I think that is how long it takes there.) Illegally means no health coverage, jobs that pay cash only, etc. It is easy to cross the borders, it is another thing entirely when you need to find work.
What? No. That’s a gross oversimplification. You’re welcome to learn more :
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada.html
Did you actually read the requirements or just post the CN immigration site? The “Express Program” which is the only fast track, 3yrs instead of 5yrs of a path to citizenship, requires either a job offer to higher education requirements, such as a BA, to qualify, or as they put it gain more points (it is a point system.) A lot of people will not qualify for this. Again, legally immigrating is not easy.
As an ‘alum’ of this intake process I feel pretty qualified to opine on it.
What’s your opinion founded on?
Actually reading it.
