I moved from Lemmy.ml because I liked the name of Lemmy.world and it ran a newer Lemmy version which meant I could make communities. I moved from Lemmy.world because they defederated from piracy communities they didn’t even host (but for some reason still kept the small piracy community they DID host) From thelemmy.club because I couldn’t see the Hackintosh community from there (probably defederated) Now I spent some time looking on join-lemmy.org and checked out some instances and this (lemy.lol) instance seemed good, so I chose that.
I’ll say it again and again, decentralization needs to be something the end user doesn’t notice, signing up to Lemmy should be like signing up to a centralized service with the servers running things being decentralized and the info redundant so servers can go down without having any effect on the service.
Let the admins decide if they don’t want to host content from certain communities, let the users decide if they want to block communities and users.
I don’t think that’d work, with Lemmy being a federated model, not a fully decentralized one.
How do you handle the actual login? Does that mean every server has access to your password hash? Or do you overhaul the account system to use something like a private and public key, with the user needing to store and transfer the private key to every device they use?
And what happens if two people register with the same username on two instances that aren’t federating? Do they somehow need to still communicate with all other instances in the network they operate in, to prevent that from happening? Because the alternative I see is the login being random in some way or tied to the instance, in which case you still lose the impression of a single service.
If I’m not mistaken, right now anybody could host a non-federating Lemmy instance, if they just wanted a small private community in this style. To my understanding, that’s the idea behind federation, and a founding concept of Lemmy - it’s not a giant service distributed across trusted servers, but a network of smaller communities that communicate with limited trust.
There are no instances anymore with this system, it’s the data hosting that’s decentralized, the front-end looks like a centralized website so you would go to Lemmy.com instead of whatever instance you signed up on.
Imagine Reddit but there’s no central authority and instead of using a service like AWS it’s just people providing storage space and bandwidth and they can decide not to host content from certain communities on their server, but from the user’s point of view they wouldn’t know where they’re pulling the data from.
So no, you couldn’t have two users with the same username. The user database could easily be shared by all storage providers or the database could be randomly split and you would have to mention what part of the database your info is stored on when logging in. When creating your account (where it checks for doubles on the whole username list hosted on all servers) you’re given a random third credential that you need to mention when logging in so the service knows which servers host that part of the user database (all info including the database would have triple redundancy).
Right now a website’s data might not be stored on a single server so that’s already how things work, the difference is that all the different servers are owned by the same company (like Amazon or Google). In the backend the servers communicate together to provide the data to the users so it feels like everything is hosted in the same place.
TL;DR: The best way to fix things is to make it work like it does for any other websites but to only decentralize the hosting instead of also decentralizing the communities.
Sounds like what you want basically is not Lemmy.
It also raises some pretty big issues, like who gets to moderate communities? Right now you make a community on a specific instance, you follow that instance’s rules, so the instance host has authority over the community. If you disagree with the instance’s rules, or with the way the community is ran, you can make a community on another instance, or even make your own instance with your own rules.
And from the other side, there need to be people with the authority to remove communities, and remove people/posts across different communities. Right now that’s the responsibility of the instance hosts, to my understanding - content is hosted on a primary instance, and stored through federating instances, so the primary instance has a responsibility to keep it clean of illegal material. Who would have this power and responsibility if instances aren’t differentiated? Sounds like the best case is giving trustworthy people an excessive amount of power, and the worst case is the entire network being shut down due to distributing illegal content and being effectively impossible to moderate.
You also didn’t address the issue of passwords - currently it’s a pretty big deal when hashed+salted passwords leak, considering those passwords compromised… The comparison with AWS is flawed - when using AWS, you’re trusting them, because it’s a big company with a reputation to keep. The situation seems very different when it’s random enthusiasts with highly differing views, and without a central authority to verify them (though there are probably too many to verify anyways)
And you propose that anybody can join the network and receive users’ passwords? On top of that, you’re proposing that you need to also know the “server” your data is stored on and supply that with logging in? Sounds like a really annoying friction point for the user.
I really feel like you’re approaching this from the wrong direction, suggesting Lemmy should abolish the very structure it’s built on for one you’d like more, but I think it could be possible to make the experience nicer without going to those extremes.
Maybe it’d be possible to let multiple instances have authority over an account, without changing its home instance, so that if your original instance goes down, you can keep the same account. And to reduce friction from communities being made across multiple instances, some way for communities themselves to federate/combine would be nice, and is probably being considered by people smarter than me.
I know it’s not how Lemmy works, what I’m saying is “There’s a big issue with how Lemmy works, here’s how I think decentralization should be approached instead.” Having terabytes of information possibly disappearing because one person gets in a car accident on their way to work isn’t an improvement vs a centralized system hosted on AWS.
Communities would be moderated by their creator, server admins could decide not to host content from any communities they don’t want to host, if no server admin wants to host your community then you’re free to host it on your own server or to fix the problems with it.
There’s illegal content on Lemmy right now, even instances that don’t want to host it need to clean up their images folder because of it, so it’s not as if the way it works right now is any better for that and it’s not as if there’s no instance admin ready to host that content.
User credentials can be stored securely. Do you think your instance admin has a text file with your password written in plain characters?
The third credential I was suggesting is just one solution so not all servers have to have a “master database” with all user info stored, split the database and let the users know they need to remember they confirm their login through database X or Y. I’m sure much more intelligent people could come up with another solution.
“There’s a big issue with how Lemmy works, here’s how I think decentralization should be approached instead.”
Again, I feel like you’re making the wrong point in the wrong place. My understanding is that you came to a project designed with the ideals of federation, and you complain that it shouldn’t be federated. That should probably be done as a fork of Lemmy, or an independent competitor.
It seems to me like you’re in ideological conflict with Lemmy’s developers, where you see no value in what Lemmy seeks to create. That’s completely fine, of course, but I really feel like you’re making your case in the wrong place.
Having terabytes of information possibly disappearing because one person gets in a car accident on their way to work isn’t an improvement vs a centralized system hosted on AWS.
Federation does not mean terabytes of information disappearing - to my understanding, posts, comments and votes are already duplicated across the instances. What would be lost is ownership of communities/posts, and accounts created on that instance, as well as things like image posts where the images are stored on one instance.
However, if images weren’t stored as links in those posts, accounts could be fully migrated, and communities could be migrated or even just federated with other communities, nothing would have to be lost.
Communities would be moderated by their creator, server admins could decide not to host content from any communities they don’t want to host, if no server admin wants to host your community then you’re free to host it on your own server or to fix the problems with it.
I feel like that structure wouldn’t work, just looking at how much defederation is happening, server owners wouldn’t want to be affiliated with certain content at all. It did also remind me of the fact that ActivityPub is not just Lemmy - you can also interact with mastodon and kbin on Lemmy, which is rooted in the federated approach.
There’s illegal content on Lemmy right now, even instances that don’t want to host it need to clean up their images folder because of it, so it’s not as if the way it works right now is any better for that and it’s not as if there’s no instance admin ready to host that content.
True, I feel like the issue only gets worse as you blur the line between different instances more, but I have no data to back that up.
User credentials can be stored securely. Do you think your instance admin has a text file with your password written in plain characters?
I feel like you failed to address my point, that with the current security standard, data leaks are still considered a threat to your password security. Even in the best case, getting access to hashed passwords means being able to brute force it without any rate limits. Maybe I’m wrong, but you’d need to either prove that password hashes leaking are not an issue at all, or figure out a way to provide trusted decentralized authentication server architecture, or figure out a way to store the passwords where leaks are not an issue… Or give up on using passwords and require a different authentication method, like public key authentication.
The third credential I was suggesting is just one solution […]. I’m sure much more intelligent people could come up with another solution.
It’s a bit hypocritical of me, since I mentioned smarter people than me working on something, but I feel like if you’re strongly suggesting Lemmy should be majorly reworked in this way, there’s some expectation for you to provide a solution, not just say that somebody will figure it out.
How does what I’m talking about prevents federation? Lemmy is federated with kbin and mastodon even though they don’t work the same way…
I never said I see no value in what Lemmy created, I’m saying that the way they went about it might not have been the right one because now that there’s a lot of users and many instances were created, we can see that one major flaw in the system is that the instance’s admin can just decide they’re done with Lemmy and all content hosted on their instance just vanishes.
If your instance crashed I wouldn’t be able to see your messages until your instance was back online, that’s why when you copy a permalink to a comment it’s the address of their instance that you see, instances host the content posted by their own user no matter where it’s posted, instances communicate between themselves to share that info so their users see what other instances users post, that’s also why you might still see posts on communities of instances you’re defederated from, they’re posts by people from your own instance.
On the password thing, it’s no worse than what’s going with the current system, you’re trusting the instance admins not to leak anything… Heck, splitting up the lists could be even more secure since it could be equally divided between hosts instead of having a couple of instances hosting what amounts to over 50% of all credentials… What happens if lemmy.world’s admin leaks everything?
And I’m suggesting solutions, I don’t have the expertise to implement them. Do you believe that all tech is developed by the person who came up with an idea? Because I sure would love to meet the person that developed my cars seats, computer, engine and suspension, that single person must be one hell of a genius!
I subscribe to this view.
After seeing this post, I needed to check what server am I on right now anyway, didn’t even remember, so I guess that’s a good thing.
You’re still dependent on a single point of failure, what I’m talking about is doing like any other website but instead of using a provider like AWS, you’ve got a bunch of people all over the world providing storage space and bandwidth and all data is stored on three servers in different locations at all times so there’s basically no reason for the website to ever crash.
If you were to access Lemmy from a web browser you would need to remember what server you’re signed up to because that’s the website you would need to go to, you wouldn’t be going to “Lemmy.com” or whatever.
You’re right, but there’s more to appreciate about needing to choose an instance.
It’s like email. All email services work with all others, but the end user still needs to choose a good one. There are more than one "good one"s, and part of the decision is about personal taste.
And sometimes you have to leave a bad provider for a better one. Look at my account, it’s brand new. Because lemm.ee has had one too many federation issues for my taste.
Ok, so your argument is basically “Look at this unrelated service, that’s how it works too, so nothing wrong with the current service except that I had to do the thing that proves that what you’re talking about would be better.”
Eliminate the central authorities altogether, let people curate their feed so they don’t have to worry about someone else making choices about their experience.
Someone could join Lemmy today and have no idea they’re missing out on a big part of the available content because they joined the wrong instance, they would then turn around and just go back to Reddit where they know everything is available and they’re in control of what they’re subscribed to and what users they want to block.
Honest question… What’s the difference? I just signed up with .world without really doing much looking around first…
Some instances are running on better servers than others, have staff that fix issues quicker and attend to updates sooner.
For example, .world is still on v18 while the rest of the threadiverse has mostly moved on to v19.
Some instances defederate certain other instances, so in some cases you might end up finding that a community you subbed to gets disappeared by the admins of your instance (lemmy.ml did this to ani.social a while back). Whether there are valid reasons goes case by case, sopuli.xyz for example blocks instances that are for porn, and I like it that way.
Though outward federation is a bit borked on there atm, so I’m using my alts…
But really, it doesn’t matter that much. If the grass looks greener, you can hop over the fence and see for yourself, and then hop right back if it turns out it wasn’t.
While I’m not on world, I also hold off on upgrades. Lemmy is still Alpha, after all.
I only moved from World because I wanted a smaller instance (and maybe because of stability). And from thelemmy.club because it blocked the Hackintosh community. And from lemmy.ml, which was my first one I moved because I heard the alligations that the admin was pro-chinese government.
“Allegations”. Nice.
Moderation and politics. Many in Lemmy don’t like ML’s stance on issues, including banning and moderating dissenting opinions. World won’t defederate from Threads. Etc. Despite no major user difference, Lemmy is a much more “active” vs passive community in reinforcing their beliefs in what’s right. It’s why many migrated here to begin with.
Threads?
Meta’s/Zuckerberg’s microblogging service, also runs on Activity Pub (the protocol that allows instances of any given service to communicate with each other, basically the backbone protocol of the Fediverse).
Many Fediverse instances decided to defederate Threads because of who’s behind it and because they’re afraid Meta’s ging to do to AP what Google did to XMPP.To add: and because they don’t want the content they create to become a money maker for a company that allows abusive organizations to stay online.
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laughs in solarpunk
We are fucking tiny, and everyone as far as I know is federated with us because they can’t be bothered. Our server is run well, though we do get a bit of unscheduled downtime (though the biggest one was due to a fucking hurricane)
slrpnk.net 🤝 pawb.social
federated via apathy
Everyone forgets about pawb.social too. Even furries seem to forget it exists lol.
Furries unite!
(we’re not as ignored as yiffit.net though)
I see both of these on all constantly.
Represent
My brother
Similar boat, private instances ftw
Ayyyyooo slrpnk 4 lyfe
i fucking love decentralized services
Can someone explain like im twelve please.
.ml works great for me. What problems did you have with it?
Mostly the people running and modding it are insane.
Thank God I don’t give a fuck about Lemmy dramas. If it works and I like the content, I’ll stay.
The problem starts when your comments silently get removed and you end up getting banned under vague “rule 1” because a mod disagrees with your view. The narrative of communities are defined by the mods even though the community is just a generic one.
Which is fine for you, but other people might not like existing on an instance entirely devoted to bootlicking and silencing any differing opinions (that are even left of mainstream… but not left enough).
People joining .ml should know what they’re getting.
Oh you mean the communism?
I am communist
They aren’t communists, they are campists who harm leftist movements by doing things like simping for autocrats and making tyrants into folk heroes for the sake be being contrarian.
Banning criticism of China and Russia has literally nothing to do with communism.
I can understand that someone might think communism is a better solution and worth a shot - but what I can’t understand is the China/Russia apologia. Trying to convince people what is plainly happening isn’t is a form of mental illness.
I’ve created my account at .world, anything I missed? Seems to work fine for me
They started defederating with piracy and trans instances and kept pushing a Discord server so I took off.
Oh and also Beehaw defederated with lemmy.world, and I wanted to see that content.
Second edit because I was reminded lemmy.world is still planning to federate with Threads, which I also wasn’t okay with.
What trans instances have they defederated?
Now that I look, I think it was really just hexbear.net, which I didn’t agree with so I moved to another instance that didn’t have them blocked
Calling hexbear a “trans instance” is pretty misleading. They’re explicitly political first and foremost, and happen to have a high concentration of trans/queer users. They were defederated by .world for being overbearing and disruptive, not because of their transness or queerness. Blahaj zone, by comparison, is explicitly a trans instance first and foremost, and is still federated by .world.
I had to leave lemm.ee because they didn’t defederate from hexbear, any even slightly political post got spammed with 300 giant shock images, plus they suffer from the nazi bar syndrome but with tankies instead of nazis
I’m not really here to argue whether or not the defederation of dbzer0, hexbear, or lemmy grad was appropriate by world or the defederation of world by beehaw. I just wanted to have the option of seeing content from all those instances and I’m clearly not the only one.
This is the great thing about federation though right? You can just sign up to another instance and see their content. Personally I think it’s nice that there’s a large instance that’s free of them, sometimes it’s exhausting going through their annoying comments.
I assume when everyone talks about hexbear being annoying, they refer to the comment images or whatever, but I’ve been using Voyager (previously wefwef) this whole time and it’s always had those as a link by default so they don’t clutter up the comments for me.
Hexbear was defederated from world for the same reason they defederated from lemmygrad; the admins of world are anticommunists. You can make a very easy argument for banning hexbear for their toxic users, but the same can’t be said for lemmygrad who are way chiller.
I seem to remember that given as the official reason, and there were certainly plenty of complaints along those lines. Whether that was a convenient excuse for anti-communist schemes or the actual reason I don’t know. Most likely it was some of both, at least in the case of hexbear.
So this would mean I wouldn’t see some piracy related content? Because I’m subscribed to some piracy communities and I think I can see the content.
I’m not really up to date with how the links between the different Lemmy instances work
You can check what a particular instance is federating and blocking at any time by visiting the instance page. Here is the one for lemmy.world https://lemmy.world/instances
Notably, it looks like they are federating with dbzer0 again.
Thanks for the information. This is putting me off on Lemmy a bit, feels like I got to keep up with the latest instance drama to ensure I have a good experience.
Guess that’s the trade of with a decentralized system for now.
You can always look into hosting your own personal instance, then you choose the communities you see content from
Same, I use World and in the Boost app I just select all or subscribed instead of local and I definitely still see the piracy community that I’m subscribed to 🤷♂️
I’ve seen quite a bit of both on here so I’m not sure what your talking about. IDK admitting about hexbear.
The first one was one of my problems. I should add the info to my post.
Whats wrong with federating with threads tho?
I had one of my posts on AskLemmy deleted for being “offensive”. It was asking a silly question “Are Brits the Americans of Europe?”. Some saw the lighthearted side. The professionally offended got it deleted.
Over-moderation will kill Lemmy instances. One of the reasons Reddit became as big as it did is due to very light-touch moderation verging on “absolute freedom of speech”. It was refreshing and ‘alternative’ compared to the increasing sanitisation of the Internet.
Unfortunately Reddit-rotted Zoomers have jumped from the heavy-handed Reddit modding to Lemmy and will quickly fuck up any attempt to grow the platform. Because they don’t remember/know how early Reddit worked.
They’re trying to moderate Lemmy like it’s a billion-user platform when it’s a few hundred thousand.
Ah yes it’s the next generations fault. What a unique take on the situation.
Every platform should have some mechanism to remove troublesome moderators.
The whole point of the Reddit-style was that subreddits could be controlled by moderators and prevented from slipping into the same old tired town square-esque mess that arrives with popularity. I guarantee a mechanism to remove moderators would result in niche communities that get a surge in popularity winding up with the original moderators ousted because all the newcomers don’t understand the community.
If you don’t like how a community is run, you can start your own for completely free. That’s how this works, you shouldn’t be able to commandeer a community from the people who started it. If there’s a truly problematic moderator, the new community will grow quickly.
The issue is that a community on any platform is made by the average users, not the moderators. If you splinter a community into three competing communities, you will probably severely damage its integrity as a whole. It’s similar to the issue that some Discord servers have, where they tell people to take discussion from the main channel into different channels. More often than not, this kills the discussion because few people actually move to a different channel, with most opting to drop the discussion entirely.
A few people shouldn’t have complete ownership over something that exists because the people under them make it so.
At the end of the day, it is the moderators who maintain and control the community. They control what users even see, so it’s not fair to say a community is made by the average user, the average user is completely silent. I would rather competing communities over every community being at the whim of the masses. The masses are easy to misguide.
Yup. The platform should feel alive.
I remember on Reddit when people were trying the limits and quirks of the algorithm, and you would wake up one day and your feed was filled with something totally unrelated. A few hours later and it went back to normal.
Moderation desperately needs openness it is way too easy to get perm banned because you pissed one person off. No notification of what you did wrong, no explanation of what you did wrong, no chance at appeal, and to add insult to injury it permanently unsubscribes you.
Over-moderation will kill Lemmy instances. One of the reasons Reddit became as big as it did is due to very light-touch moderation verging on “absolute freedom of speech”. It was refreshing and ‘alternative’ compared to the increasing sanitisation of the Internet.
That’s the sub not the website, over moderation is a feature of some subs, just like lemmy instances. Just like reddit, if you don’t like it create your own, unlike reddit you can set an overall tone to your instance.
I say some spicy stuff now and then. Some gets hammered some not.
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I understand the issue of “it’s a Fediverse only if the network is diversified.” And “it’s difficult for new users to understand.” But if we also go down the path of making the system like a standard centralized network we defeat the purpose of the Fediverse.
Our issue isn’t a “we need to copycat our predecessors” it’s a “we need to explain how we work in a simple enough way no one could possibly misunderstand.”
I’ve tried various methods of explaining it, and I think the issue is half bad explanations and half a lack of interest.
We need to also start pressing our strengths. The Fediverse, as it’s nature of an AGPLv3 project, is ad free. We also don’t have the weight of megacorps deciding what is allowed to be shared because of said ad revenue.
Avoid talking about the technology. Boast our numbers, we’re 2 million strong on Lemmy and 14 million Fediverse wide. Avoid confusion, offer help, and press our advantages.
What about
Its like email but for social media because everyone can make an account on different instances and still talktoveachother
Its free and without ads or a premium subscription
Its run by users, big corporation’s wont decide whqt makes them most money, users will decide
I think I get how it’s supposed to work but I feel like there’s not much content on here or my instance maybe hides stuff from my feed. I also think the search function for new communities needs improvement.
what’s this supposed to mean? i’ve never had an issue with .ml
ML was the first instance, they created an account there first and jumped from instance to instance until they ended up where they are, leaving the original instance completely neglected. It’s quite a literal interpretation of the meme format, which you don’t often see.
oh damn, you’re right! totally makes sense now
Meh, just need to find an instance that seems friendly and stable enough then try to keep it afloat.
I think I’ll stay here if there are no problems. That’s why I used the word “might”
Hexbear in the corner
You seem like you enjoy having fun. I like that.
What the hell is happening
join us
Hexbear will always stay winning it’s impossible for anyone to stop us
While I’m not on Hexbear, I’m a huge fan. We’ll stay with you till the bitter end comrades.
Hexbear always has the funniest takes, I give them that
I’m still on lemmy.ml instance since my first day here! And this is the only account I have.
We don’t know what is going to happen tomorrow… But, at least for awhile, I have no regrets at all!
Same, I signed up to Lemmy.world and have been on here for probably a good 4-5 months. If you browse the federated network instead of just your local server it doesn’t matter what server you use AFAIK.
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I highly doubt that most people use that term to refer to female dogs.
Shut up, female dog!
What the hell is your deal?
“If you don’t like how we do it, go make your own” is the biggest cop out.
I don’t get it ._. Why move?
If you disagree with the admin’s choices when it comes to defederating other instances, that’s the main reason why you would switch to another instance…
(Cries in feddit.uk)
