restaurants are fighting back
Unless it’s by raising their prices by 15-20% and paying their employees a living wage, it ain’t gonna work. Tipping is moronic.
That’s essentially what they’re doing, but with a surcharge rather than just raising their menu because we love adding on tax and fees here in the US
It’s a bad deal that only policy could really fix at this point.
If you’re the only store with real menu prices then customers just get price shocked at what they’re actually going to be paying when they can go next door to another restaurant that doesn’t tell you the full price up front. Customers would be upset at a mid $18 burger, but are fine with a mid $16 burger + $2 tip.
Imo, the problems stem from the forced rat race of no one having enough money excluding the rich. Prices being high wouldn’t matter if people got paid more, but cause we’re not getting paid more, the companies that target the general population just make everything into cheap knockoff crap to still turn the same or better profit margins.
Policy created the problem.
That’s also a surefire way to piss everyone off! It’s hilarious to see the extent that restaurants will go to keep the menu price low.
I mean, that’s basically what airlines did when they started charging $20 for checked baggage so they could get the price Expedia shows to be as low as possible.
I think you mean cabin bag
Fortunately the EU is revoking that
Base price needs to be with a cabin bag + personal item. Then they can make a discount if one decides not to take the cabin bag but at least the comparison includes it from the start
As an American I’ve never heard the term cabin bag before. But I’m sure they’ll find a way to charge me extra for it.
European budget airlines split it in 3. Checked luggage (in the hold), Cabin bag (in the overhead locker) and personal bag (under the seat, with your legs). Everything other than personal is charged for. They also make it difficult it just get the bag, not a whole package.
It’s gotten to the point it’s pissed off the EU and they are cracking down on it
No, they mean checked baggage. By charging for that, budget airlines have been able to almost entirely do away with having check-in desks, and have greatly reduced the handling fees they pay.
Virtually all airlines charge for checked baggage tho. It’s not just budget airline. At least for flights that aren’t intercontinental
Tbf they’d have to reprint their menus on that fancy laminated paper just while the eurotrash is in town and then swap back to the old ones when they leave in like what, a week? When will this dumb association football tournament end?
Anyway nobody is going to Kinkos, they’re gonna add a 20% surcharge in the computer for the week and remove it after. I hope they only do it to people with an accent too and give locals the normal price.
They’ll raise their prices and give the employees nothing, just wait and see.
Correct, they should pay their workforce (surprise!).
Hang on.
So you’re fine if restaurants raise their prices 20%,
But not fine simply doing the math to add that 20% yourself?
What is the real difference there? The price would then be the same, you’d just get a lower “advertised” price. Functionally there is no difference tbh, besides the marketing of saying the burger is $9.99 instead of the $11.98 you’d pay with a 20% tip.
So now the menu says “burger, $11.99” but you don’t tip, ok, so, and? What really is the functional difference here? You’re paying the same price either way, the literal only difference is you have to do the math yourself or be an absolute prick for a 20% discount because fuck that server. Is it just hatred of math?
I don’t like doing pointless things myself, especially when other nations have solved the problem.
Mmhmm, so you admit there’s functionally no difference other than having to do math and have no argument, but still refuse to admit I’m right so you’re gonna pull the “other nations” card and shut down?
Well guess what, “you’re” (those visiting I mean, I don’t have an airtag in your pocket) in this nation so get used to how it works here loser, I guess. You don’t see me going to Japan and shoving tips in their server’s pockets, because tipping is disrespectful there and despite it being a cultural difference between us I’m not too fucking stupid to adjust.
The funniest part to me is I’m the one with math anxiety (it’s real), and I’m still capable of doing this…
OHHHH you want a 20% discount but also want to feel morally superior to the server you stiffed to get that discount, after you’ve paid the owner their profits to perpetuate the system you claim to hate. Figures.
Because tipping is inherently biased (there’s plenty of data that shows that it’s unfair af) plus the whole history of why it exists (read it up).
Pay your workers a living wage and get rid of the excessive tipping culture you have there. It’s also bleeding into our side of the pond
Since you are already calling people loser it tells me everything I need to know about you.
Cheers
Right, sure.
But the premise is that if everyone tipped 20% they’d have a livable wage, and instead of that they should just charge 20% more, so your $9.99+20% burger is now just $11.98. What is the difference for you?
The server experiences a difference, pricks who don’t tip no longer can’t, it’s built into the price, great. But the price of your bill being 20% more and that 20% going to them is functionally no different than if the price of your bill was 20% less and you tipped that 20%, the literal only differences are
A) it’s no longer a choice, it is now compulsory (good imo, fuck you non-tippers, if they make you do it through raising prices all the better for me)
B) you no longer have to do the math if you would have tipped. (Great, as a math anxiety haver that’s cool too. That said I have a calculator and it’s a low pressure environment, even ol’ math anxiety me isn’t that much of a pussy.)
I’m fine with either of those.
But really, is that it? Is that the only difference, you don’t want to do the math yourself? Why isn’t the tax the same, why aren’t you complaining that also isn’t included in the price?
Not doing the math is enough reason tbh. But also I’m not going to tip %20 for someone serving a beer compared to someone preparing a cocktail, it becomes unnecessarily complicated and as many other comments have pointed out, only the restaurant owner gets any real benefit.
Oh yes you would “tip” 20% if they just raised the price of the beer 20% and gave that to your server, it’s functionally the same but instead of being up to you it is forced, and it’s not called a tip anymore, but it’s still there.
And in the current system the server definitely benefits more from being tipped than being stiffed and working your table for free, the benefit is called “being able to afford rent this month,” either tip or boycott the whole restaurant, the owner doesn’t give a shit if you tip. If you manage to change the entire system then great but as it stands the only one you’re hurting by supporting the business and not tipping is the server.
WTF?! TAX ist not included in the price either?!?!?!? That is fucking insane!
Nope. At least not in most states, it varies. How fun is that?
At least you’re complaining about it too though, the consistency is refreshing instead of these people who only care about the tips for some reason.
A) is already a good reason but the bigger one is that everyone is paid a living wage and this stops being the responsibility of the consumer (which I argue it isn’t already and shouldn’t be). And this happens regardless of their age, looks, skin colour, size of tits, luck in their schedule, or which part of the restaurant they work in.
Tax not being included is also insane. We’re not complaining about that because if we were to complain about everything retarded about the US there wouldn’t be enough space in this forum. You guys are getting screwed and played. Focus on that instead of insulting people who refuse to take part in it. It tip is so mandatory that you will insult whoever doesn’t tip then put it in the price. Simple as
Sure, and I suppose that means under the current system you do tip? If the tip becoming compulsory is good in your opinion, are you giving it freely now or do you have to be forced to do the right thing?
I don’t disagree that it should change, but it hasn’t, and until it does you only hurt the worker you claim to support by not tipping.
At least you’re consistent RE: tax. Some people only seem to hate that paying for their service isn’t included but the government? That’s fine. Wonder why, couldn’t have anything to do with it being easier to fuck over further an already exploited worker, I’m sure.
Wait weren’t you guys being losers by whining about your system working as intended
Literally by losing out on money that is not in any way yours by law
Then going online and crying about it
… If Europe is losing than I don’t want to win whatever twisted game you are playing
So you’re fine if restaurants raise their prices 20%,
But not fine simply doing the math to add that 20% yourself?
Yes, exactly.
What is the real difference there?
Well…
The price would then be the same, you’d just get a lower “advertised” price.
It’s this. It’s misleading advertising. And this kind of misleading advertising is proven to get people to spend more money, which is exactly why restaurants do it.
Same thing with not including tax in the advertised price. It’s all about screwing over the customer. Nothing else.
EDIT: I’m sorry people are being so hard on you. I’m not here to insult you and downvote you for having an opinion I dislike, lol
You’re cool lmao, those others are selfish pricks without a real argument who want a discount. They’re one step off from the people who make fake complaints to get free food but for some reason don’t want to return the “mistake” (it wasn’t a mistake, they want free food, they think I can’t remember 30 whole minutes ago but turns out I’m not a goldfish). You actually had something to add, not only is that “fine” but I like it!
Now, I do actually agree with you, but also functionally everyone here knows “burger $9.99” includes neither tax nor tip, so it is actually $9.99+10%tax+20%tip.
I’m not saying I’d be mad if we changed the menus to reflect those additional charges, but as it stands we don’t and as evidenced by this thread, whether the world agrees or not they know that is the custom. As such claims of false advertising are tenuous at best, you knew going in, and we know you knew, being a gaijin/n’wah is no excuse (at least after let’s say two days and two purchases).
For instance, though I’ve never been I know tipping is seen as rude in Japan, as such if I ever did get to visit (too poor, and that’s another thing if you can afford to travel like that you’re doing better than EVERY server so help them out like you would the homeless, they’re close enough to homeless as is), I wouldn’t be attempting to shove my American custom of tipping the workers onto them. Literally “same but reverse” here.
You’re right, it is in a sense “false advertising,” but still there’s not really a functional difference since everyone knows (or once they learn upon their first purchase if they didn’t, I suppose).
Idk how EU countries handle sales tax though, is it actually included on the sticker price like they do in New Hampshire, or should they be more used to this concept than they are letting on?
It’s called VAT and its included in the price. Companies get taxed on category specific things and upcharge the base. We see what we pay here. In fact there are laws about price as well, if the price at the till differs from the shown price on the pricecard/tag they must sell it at the price shown or risk fines
Beware though, buy it first then go service desk for refunds
If you complain in store or at the register they run out and fix the tag
Good to know, thanks!
Still curious why servers deserve the ire for the practices of their boss and government, and why they should be the only ones hurt in the protest of these practices.
Why not bitch at the restaurant owners and government making the decisions, rather than making the servers being victimized and exploited by that system take the brunt of the effects? Why are all the complaints about tips, not tax, even though that is the exact same and on the exact same receipt?
It still seems a might selfish to me to make the poorest worker in the chain who made 0% of these decisions the bad guy, still go to the restaurant he works at and make him work for you for free against his will, not tip him, and get mad about his boss being a dick as if it is his fault at all, all because adding 20% yourself is hard. What’s next, you gonna blame your server for the food prices and state sales tax too? Gonna get mad at your bartender because the bar doesn’t stock blue curacao? It makes no sense, get mad at the guy making the decisions and stop supporting him, otherwise you’re just a dick using fake moral superiority for a 20% discount.
And still, if I go to your country it is my responsibility to learn and respect your local customs, example still Japan where tipping is rude, there’s no difference here beyond it being the opposite direction.
It’s not ire, it’s enforcing logic
I think a little cultural awakening is happening thanks to the world Cup
I loved the answer to a question posed somewhere about the amount of Dutch people in the streets of Houston, someone wondered how they all got here on such short notice
The winning comment on that post was another example of why Americans are ill equipped to even begin to grow an inkling of understanding (note the lack of ire here)
Europeans have 5 weeks of holiday, their arrivals were more spread out
… Waking up yet?
Or should they have all come at once in order to not disturb the fragile American ecosystem as well
If by cultural awakening you mean “servers are going to hate you for not tipping” then congratulations, because that’s all you’re gonna get by supporting the exploitative business. It’s like yelling at an Amazon worker they work for a bad company when they just need to feed their family all while still supporting Amazon monetarily by using their services, you’re not helping as much as you think. Somehow everyone gets this and many boycott Amazon but instead of inconveniencing yourself for this one you just get mad at the lowest person on the totem pole and still support it.
Great for the Dutch. Those servers you’re stiffing don’t get any vacation and are only given enough hours to keep them a part time employee specifically so they don’t get benefits, and you feel good about stiffing them because of your moral high ground? Ooooook.
those others are selfish pricks without a real argument who want a discount.
Lmao that’s not at all the problem and you’re here in bad faith if you act like you believe that it is. I just want servers to be paid a fair wage (minimum wage at the very least but the problems with minimum wage are an entirely different conversation) and not be expected to pay a multimillion dollar company’s employees for them
Sure, we both agree on what should be.
And we both know what is.
As it is, do you tip at restaurants where the servers rely on it? Do you stiff the worker? Do you not go at all?
Why would I want to keep a horrific system in place?
I don’t tip, so the employees can complain to their employer until they change it.
Not how it works, the employer goes “sucks don’t it?” And then when you get fed up enough to leave they hire another person who is about a week away from homelessness to continue the cycle. Your naivety is astounding.
Yeah, what I’m saying is that I don’t want to be nickle and dimed, because it makes me feel like a victim of deceptive marketing.
No matter how strongly you know that your $9.99 burger is actually $14.00 (or more because tipping on the machine is often calculated after tax), psychological studies show that $9.99 tends to subconsciously mean “under $10” to people…and to services like Google Maps.
We’ve created this culture that it’s okay to subconsciously deceive the customer to extract an extra $0.01 (or $1.00) out of every purchase…and an extra 10%…and an extra 20% if it’s at a restaurant.
People who set a price limit for themselves of $20 will gladly go into a restaurant and buy something that’s $19.99 and feel like they’ve stayed within their budget.
This is the problem. I don’t like living somewhere where “buy a meal for under $10!” means I need to spend at least $15.
Yeah, not in the US. Here if it says $19.99 for anything anywhere you know that’s not including tax, because that is how it works here.
We can talk about how it should be all day and we likely agree, the difference is that you refuse to recognize what is, and think hurting the worker by not tipping but making them serve you for free (instead of boycotting exploitative businesses entirely) is the answer.
Just don’t go. That’s it, it’s that simple.
You’ve got the wrong person. I tip, and probably too much.
I don’t want tipping to end because I expect to pay less. I want it to end because it’s inherently deceptive to the customer. As is tax not being included in the sticker price.
Sorry, either that was for one of the other 40 of you or it was meant to be the royal “you,” depending. And I’m not going back to figure out which.
But that’s good that you do (if you go places that require it).
Sure, I’m all for it, my arguments are varied about the 40 of you but the jist is as follows:
- Sure it’d be great if it changed, but
- it has not. So while you’re here visiting the country either
- don’t go to tipped places if you refuse to tip, or
- tip if you do,
- because not tipping only hurts the worker.
- no it doesn’t “hurt the boss too,”
- no it isn’t “the only way to change the system,”
- it isn’t even a way to change the system
- and even if it was, it’s not going to happen in time for the people who are already here to see it
- sure accidents happen, you may not know
- once you learn, if you choose not to tip the worker that has only committed the mortal sin of serving your food
- it just makes you an asshole.
(For context in this one I definitely mean the royal “you,” not the “you” you. “You” you said you do tip lol.)
So you’re cool with employers paying people $2.70 an hour because they might get 20% in tips? Advertising a lower price for something but then seeing extra charges on the bill that you didn’t even know you agreed to when you sat down?
That makes more sense than just paying the people a livable wage and showing people the actual price they will pay?
Brainwashed people think this way.
No as I said, the employee feels a difference, tipping would then be mandatory as it is baked into the price, good for them.
But what is the actual functional difference TO YOU, the customer? Beyond having to do math and having a choice on tipping, of course. THAT was the question.
Yeah I am aware of my local customs and if I travel I learn the practices of the place I go, so “that doesn’t happen to me.” I see the price and know that tax will be added, and tip will be given, so math must be done. It really isn’t that difficult. If I went to Japan I wouldn’t tip, because it is rude there, so while I’d feel like a jerk not tipping as it is the culture I’m used to that is my problem to deal with instead of forcing them to take the cash.
Should it change? Sure. Has it? No. Until it does not tipping only harms those workers you claim to support.
Here’s the thing. I don’t need something to affect me before I care. Some people really just can’t grasp that concept.
And by “caring” do you mean supporting the business and not tipping the worker?
This is dumb.
No u.
If you’d like to elaborate, I can too. For now that’s all the response you get.
Your original rebuttal is dumb. Raise the prices, pay employees, eliminate tipping.
Ok, you raise the price from $9.99 to $11.98 and no tips.
Cool. And?
What has functionally changed other than you having to do math?
And does this apply to sales tax, or does it only apply for tips? Why are you not also complaining that sales tax (dependant on state but for convo’s sake lets say 10%) isn’t included on the menu price as well? The government can require math but not your server? Seems arbitrary imo.
The heart of the matter is that the only one screwed by not tipping is the poor server, the boss gets his from the menu price so you’re still helping perpetuate the system if you patronize those establishments regardless of tipping or not, but really, other than making you pull out your phone calc what is the physical difference between paying “$9.99+20%” and “$11.98,” if not “just doing a little basic math?”
Jesus man, your argument is that employers should be allowed to not fairly compensate their employees. Just shut the fuck up.
Well no, my argument is that whether the 20% is included in the bill or you have to do math you’re still paying the same price so what is the actual functional difference besides
A) making you do math
And
B) giving you the choice to be a prick for a 20% discount at the worker’s expense.
I’ve so far not heard any other differences but I have heard a lot of excuses for not ponying up that supposedly fine 20%.
And still nobody has answered why 10% for taxes not included is fine but 20% for tip not included is over the line.
It’s sounding like you’re all a bunch of selfish smegheads to me, honestly.
What has functionally changed other than you having to do math?
That customers are guaranteed to pay that money. Isn’t that obvious?
I guess it’s hard to understand if one has lived in the US all their life. Otherwise, including service charges in the bill is normal business practice anywhere else in the world.
And the fact that the OP is precisely about how foreigners don’t tip and how that is a issue for US service employees, is proof that the US as a whole should get rid of tipping and just increase prices.
What functionally changed FOR YOU, the customer? As I said the employee sees a change, people can no longer stiff them, great.
But aside from math and the ability to choose to be an asshole, what changes for the customer?
Sure, change the system. But as it stands now, this is the system, and unless you’re able to time machine back to before the world cup visitors got here in time to change it, then this is the system you’re visiting and you need to adapt. Just as I would need to adapt to your culture if I went wherever you live or I’d be the asshole, same goes here.
It’s not my fucking job to make sure your workers are paid appropriately. I came here for a fucking steak and some freedom fries. I paid for my fucking food and I just want to eat it in peace. Stop turning your problems into my problems.
But here’s the thing, it ain’t the owners’ problem either. They’re winning. The whole reason they do this is to externalize labor costs and do ad hoc market segmentation, except it’s based on customers kinda being dicks. When you don’t tip in the US, you have sided with the owners and have said to the server, “you are worth minimum wage.”
Agitate the rest of the day. Tip at mealtime.
Wrong
The owners are the bad actors here. They enjoy increased margins in an environment where additional salary top ups are somehow the customer’s problem.
Pay your waitstaff you cheap fucks
The owners are the bad actors but the only person getting screwed when you don’t tip is the server.
Don’t want to tip, don’t eat out. It’s pretty simple.
If the job didn’t come with the tip, they wouldn’t be able to hire. Not tipping is the actual solution.
Boycotting the restaraunt is the actual solution.
Not tipping just makes you an asshole.
All restaurants in the US require tipping. You’ll have to boycott all of them, and that won’t send a message about tipping. You would need the majority of people to still go to restaurants and not tip to send the message and that’s never going to happen because people have been brainwashed to think their value as a human being requires generous tipping. Comments like “if you don’t tip you’re an asshole” means the system is working as intended and will never change.
Not true. There’s a restaraunt in my town (and not even a very large town!) that pays all staff the same (relatively decent) wage and splits any tips they do happen to get equally among all staff. Obviously people will still tip, because that’s the culture here, but if you didn’t tip it’s not like the staff won’t be paid at all.
Places like that are rare but they’re out there, and the principled thing to do would be to spend your money with establishments that are doing their best to be part of the solution.
No, not going is the solution. By patronizing a business that runs of tips, you are paying the business and perpetuating the system whether you tip or not, the only person you hurt by not tipping is the worker.
“Then they can find another job,” and you can find another restaurant, but you didn’t, you chose to go to the one that relies on tips and specifically chose fuck over the poor employee hoping to afford rent and food this month while paying the boss full price so he makes a profit, and telling the employee that you didn’t pay him because his boss is a dick (as if he didn’t fucking know that). Ok fine the worker moves to a warehouse gig, and the restaurant hires the application at the top of the stack and exploits them on your dollar until they too get fed up, rinse and repeat because someone always needs something quick to stave off homelessness and you can’t figure out how to heat up your own fucking chickey nuggies.
If people only went to restaurants that didn’t rely on tips in the US there would be no restaurants whatsoever and all workers would be out of a job.
If people go to the restaurant and don’t tip at some point the waiter can say to their boss that they either get a living wage or they can go to the restaurant thst doesn’t rely on tips (since from your comment they are so common).
From my European POV don’t trick me with fake prices. If the item I’m buying is presented to me with the cost of X then that’s what you should expect and demand of me. Tipping is extra, voluntary and based on above average service.
Shit when I was there last time I got asked for a tip for asking for an item that was off the shelf. It wasn’t even cooked or prepared in any way and it wasn’t even supposed to be consumed in that café. I wasn’t going to pay 20% on an expensive bag of coffee just because some waiter fetched it literally from the shelf behind him. It’s insane
Besides basically everything else runs off tips so it works. Or do you tip your landlord with the rent??
If people only went to restaurants that didn’t rely on tips in the US there would be no restaurants whatsoever and all workers would be out of a job.
But you’re fine exploiting those workers who need that job and not tipping? Honestly fuck you for that. I’d rather be out of a job than work for you for free.
If people go to the restaurant and don’t tip at some point the waiter can say to their boss that they either get a living wage or they can go to the restaurant thst doesn’t rely on tips (since from your comment they are so common).
They can. And then the boss goes to the stack of applications from other people who really don’t want to become homeless so they’ll take whatever job they can get, hires the first one to show up, and within an hour the cycle continues.
From my European POV don’t trick me with fake prices. If the item I’m buying is presented to me with the cost of X then that’s what you should expect and demand of me. Tipping is extra, voluntary and based on above average service.
And why then have I not heard one complaint about sales tax, which is also not included on the menu? Fuck the worker but I’ll pay his boss and the government? And how again is that helping the worker? Honestly if you want to pinch pennies fine but don’t pretend you’re doing anyone but yourself a favor.
Shit when I was there last time I got asked for a tip for asking for an item that was off the shelf. It wasn’t even cooked or prepared in any way and it wasn’t even supposed to be consumed in that café. I wasn’t going to pay 20% on an expensive bag of coffee just because some waiter fetched it literally from the shelf behind him. It’s insane
Fair enough, I wouldn’t have tipped then either, and it can be difficult to understand when it is necessary VS when some dumb tablet at a store asks but it isn’t (that is new since covid tbf).
Basically at any sit down restaurant with servers, or delivery drivers, or bartenders, you need to tip or they’re serving you for free while their exploiter gets paid. As for counter service like you mention, it’s basically only baristas (coffee servers), other counter service workers get paid and you can safely ignore the tablet. I gotta admit that part is probably the hardest part to figure out especially for someone not used to it.
Besides basically everything else runs off tips so it works. Or do you tip your landlord with the rent??
I’ll assume you mean “doesn’t run off tips” but that’s the thing, my landlord isn’t dependant on tips. My servers however are and I know this, so as the system stands today the only people hurt by the lack of tips are those who do indeed rely on them, not their boss, not their bosses landlord, just them. I guess if you want to hurt the poor servers then fine, but impo that’s a dick move. You have to change the system first though before you can stop tipping the workers, again unless you’re fine helping exploit them that is.
Fuck those waiters I guess, right?
Either you think the situation is okay or you don’t and shouldn’t enable it through your behavior. Simple as. That being said, I usually tip (and well) from shear pressure. I think the whole vibe is gross though.
The situation sucks, but until there’s a mass movement to stop it, not tipping only hurts the people at the bottom.
If you don’t want to enable it the answer is to not eat out, not to screw over the waitstaff who are counting on it to make rent.
Or, don’t eat places that don’t pay their workers
I mean, that’s a better choice than “fuck my waiter, specifically and today, while not affecting his bosses’ bottom line at all.”
Yep. Continuing to patronize that establishment, whether or not you tip, perpetuates tipping culture.
Yes. Those are your choices. Either
A) don’t eat places that don’t pay their workers
Or
B) Tip at the place you chose to go to that relies on tips.
It’s literally that simple.
And as a tourist, how do I find out if a place pays their workers? Talk to the manager before I enter a restaurant?
That’s none of my business.
Talk to the worker, or ask any random person you meet, even another patron. “Excusé moi how you say do we tip here?” They’ll tell you honestly.
It is your business as the customer in the transaction, it isn’t your business if you don’t go in.
And if I get the answer then that it’s customary here to pay 20% more than the amount on the bill, then I say “no thanks” and leave - because I have to assume then that wages aren’t at a decent, humane level? That doesn’t work for me, would be rude.
I just want to go out for a meal. When I’m a guest somewhere in a foreign country, it’s certainly not my place to get involved in such sensitive issues. I expect the local residents and politicians to handle those matters. As a guest, I wouldn’t interfere in political issues like that; it would be completely inappropriate.
With any reputable business where I make a purchase, I expect to be quoted a reasonable price with no hidden extra costs. This applies to museums and shops, as well as restaurants. I don’t want to spend my vacation conducting extensive investigations and research every time I spend money to see if the company pays its employees fairly.
And if I get the answer then that it’s customary here to pay 20% more than the amount on the bill, then I say “no thanks” and leave - because I have to assume then that wages aren’t at a decent, humane level?
YES.
That doesn’t work for me, would be rude.
Worker solidarity is rude? Well that’s fine, go. THEN TIP.
I just want to go out for a meal. When I’m a guest somewhere in a foreign country, it’s certainly not my place to get involved in such sensitive issues.
Yes it is, if you go to that country. It isn’t your place if you stay the fuck home, outlander. Otherwise observe the customs of where you travel. You must be British, I’ve heard people internationally hate them more than Americans and I’m betting your attitude is why.
With any reputable business where I make a purchase, I expect to be quoted a reasonable price with no hidden extra costs
OH, so you will leave when it’s a disreputable exploitative business?
That doesn’t work for me, would be rude.
Ah yeah, right. Why would you bother with consistency, you don’t need that for a FAKE moral high ground.
Gtfo, we don’t want you here.
To be fair, the workers dont want the livable wage either. 20% tip is much better than what they would get paid.
I wish this exposed tipping culture for what it is, but America is so deep in capitalism that you’ll hear more complaints against this.
It’s so fucking stupid
Just raise the prices by 20% and also pay the staff 20% more.
But fuck workers’ rights and living wages, right?
They wouldn’t need to raise prices that much.
During the Obamacare debate the Papa John’s CEO was upset that he would have to raise pizza prices a few cents to pay for the health insurance his workers need. Wealthy people are psychopaths.
For some reason I thought I remembered seeing an article about Papa John dying. Apparently I was mistaken.
Bummer…
But then what do the owners get?
/s
Tipping is fucking stupid but it is the current system for how US waiters earn a living. So to fuck them over and not tip does nothing to change the system and only leaves them overworked with no money.
Think materially and tip your servers. Believe me they would like it to change too. It isn’t them that keeps the system in place. Big business has the money to lobby against our human and material needs.
Servers don’t want the system to change as they make more money with tips than they would from a “livable wage”
Former euro server here. Got a livable wage plus tips. Not the mandated kind, just the extras people would leave. That would net me 5 euros per hour above my livable wage.
Yeah definitely not arguing against earning a livable wage via being paid that livable wage by the employer. That should be the system. But sadly that isn’t the system and not paying a tip in the states isn’t going to do anything to change the system.
For example, the unhoused crisis is caused by the same ultra rich classes that keep tipping around. But I’m not going to pretend that the unhoused aren’t people with real immediate needs. I will give them money when I can. I will vote and push for change as well. Material concerns of the moment are more important to me than strict idealism.
Yeah I’m absolutely on board and quite in favor of what you argue. The institutionalized out sourcing of wages is absurd.
I can’t be against tipping as a concept, as I live in a place where it works, but the us system irks me.
But we can and should be more social. Helping oneself instead of borrowing the selfishness of the upper class.
Y’all living privileged idealogue navel-gazed lives can do what you want I guess. We here in the working class are tired, overworked, and are trying to survive the day.
You’re more frustrated at people that don’t leave tips over the fact you are seen as less than a person by the owners that pay a pitiful wage. Look to the people that came before you, look up Mario Savio.
The non-tippers are complicit, they patronize my job and give the owner their money, but don’t think I’m deserving of any either as evidenced by them not tipping. My boss doesn’t give a shit whether I’m tipped or not, and if I leave over it he’ll have my replacement within the hour and the system continues.
Sure, be an ideologue all you want and “tipping is wrong!” So don’t come into my store. That’s the only way to make my boss feel it instead of me, if you come in, give him $20 and give me the finger for wasting time on you, yes, of course I’m mad at both of you.
So if nobody went to your store because they don’t want to tip the restaurant would close and you’d be fired.
You are being exploited by your boss. The people tipping you are subsidizing that exploitation. You want to be pissed, go be pissed at your boss or find another job.
As another user mentioned plenty of wait staff are in favour of tipping so also because of that it doesn’t change
And it’s a descriminative and unfair system. Theres plenty of data on it.
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Just go eat at McDonalds then.
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This is generally false. Most waiters would see more consistent income with fewer instances of subjective nonsense like ideologues who don’t believe they have to follow the basic cultural rules of the place in which they visit. There is an exceptional subset of waiters that would make less for sure but they are in a minority.
I put livable wage in quotation marks because it wouldn’t actually be a livable wage. The pay would likely be 1-2x minimum wage which is still not livable in most places
People most definitely want to be paid by their employer rather than tips. This isn’t a bottom up movement keeping tipping in place. It is ultra rich people invested in the restaurant industry that keep it around. The same people that use the National Restaurant Association to effectively lobby against minimum wage hikes to meet that “livable wage” and pro-unionization regulation.
Not once you consider healthcare, taxes, and social security.
The presence of a livable wage doesn’t affect any of those though?
The employer still pays FICA on tipped revenue, and paying for insurance has nothing to do with their wage
If we all participated in a “tip strike” and stopped leaving tips, the front of the house staff that relies on it would quit. Eventually the restaurant owners would have to do something about it.
Unfortunately, it seems like the owners would rather add a gratuity fee than rise prices on the menu and pay a decent wage.
One can hope though that eventually, tipping would go away. Sorry bar tenders and servers. Some of you may struggle but it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make meme
How about instead of a “tip strike” (aka “make the servers work for free until they get fed up because fuck them”) you do a “boycott” (“not fucking go at all so you don’t have to tip and you’re not forcing the worker to serve you for free”)?
You can’t sacrifice your night out for your ideals but you can inconvenience your server? Real magnanimous, thanks.
Trust me I already do that. I don’t eat out often and when I do it’s mostly at places with no table service (meaning no tip)
Well good then, it really is that easy.
Servers like tips. They’re choosing this employment.
Nope. It’s not my obligation to pay their wages directly. They can accept no tip, they can lobby for a living wage from their employer, or they can find a different job. I am okay with all of the above.
The only way change happens is through action, not just crying about it. If you want change, stop tipping.
ah yes, put the onus on the people just trying to survive while still patronizing the restaurant that the owner continues to make profits on.
If you feel this strongly, you should boycott all restaurants that make their servers rely on tips.
Yet still the only one hurt is the worker, the boss got theirs when you paid for your meal.
“The worker can leave if they don’t like serving me for free while worrying about homelessness” yeah, and you could cook at home or go to a restaurant that doesn’t use the tipping model (they exist), yet you chose to go somewhere that the worker relies on tips and enjoy in the exploitation with the owner, you are an essential part in keeping the business running the way it does. On top of that you exploit them further yourself by knowing full well how it works and who you’re really hurting and justifying it in your selfish mind so you can pinch pennies. Even if the worker does quit the owner just pulls the top application off the stack and gives them a call, there’s a revolving door of people willing to do whatever they have to to avoid becoming homeless. Most often that worker then just cycles to another restaurant an continues the cycle themselves as they can get another waitstaff job easier than anything else.
Not only are you literally changing nothing, you’re actively participating in the exploitation you claim to be against, you’re not the business owner, no, but without you his exploitation wouldn’t work.
But then what is the difference? Literally just “not doing math?”
If burger $9.99 + 20% tip = $11.98, and you’re fine with paying that $11.98, why does it make a difference if the menu says “$11.98” or you do the math yourself? Are you also mad tax (in most states) isn’t included on the sticker price of retail goods, or are you fine doing your own math when it comes to tipping the government?
the difference is false advertising. being able to know prices upfront and being able to make a fair decision on where to eat.
it is so weird this is not common sense.
And does that apply to taxes, which also aren’t included in the menu price? Why am I supposed to take the brunt of this issue as a poor worker and not my boss or government? Fuck me for not wanting to be homeless? Why doesn’t ONE comment in this thread besides mine mention taxes though they follow the exact same logic?
Is it because you want to pinch pennies, and you can choose to not tip but have to pay tax, and deep down you know you’re only fucking over the employee but have to sanitize your conscience so you can save 20% on your bill?
And does that apply to taxes, which also aren’t included in the menu price?
in civilized societies all taxes and everything are included in the price you will be required to pay. civilized societies don’t rely on hidden costs to wear down their people. though on this latter part, the plague is already spreading from the US…
Is it because you want to pinch pennies, and you can choose to not tip but have to pay tax, and deep down you know you’re only fucking over the employee but have to sanitize your conscience so you can save 20% on your bill?
you have to understand this. It’s not the pesky filthy consumer that scews you. It’s your employer. but sure, it’s easier and even pleasurable to hate the small person, than your owner.
in civilized societies all taxes and everything are included in the price you will be required to pay. civilized societies don’t rely on hidden costs to wear down their people. though on this latter part, the plague is already spreading from the US…
Ok. Then stay there. You wouldn’t want to come into such an uncivilized place with all of us savages anyway. Problem solved for you.
you have to understand this. It’s not the pesky filthy consumer that scews you. It’s your employer. but sure, it’s easier and even pleasurable to hate the small person, than your owner.
You have to understand this, it is both of you. Without you paying him he wouldn’t be able to keep the business running and exploiting the revolving door of people close to homelessness that are willing to work to avoid living in the street. You are an essential cog in the exploitation machine. Don’t worry, they all hate the owner too, just also you for literally understanding how it works but still coming in here and making me serve you for free just because you disagree with my boss. You give him a $20 and give me the finger, why wouldn’t I hate both of you?
Ok. Then stay there. You wouldn’t want to come into such an uncivilized place with all of us savages anyway. Problem solved for you.
now that is correct.
Without you paying him he wouldn’t be able to keep the business running
oh they must he running on such a thin profit margin even the boss is starving. I’m so sad for him. he is just not able to pay a better wage.
but still coming in here and making me serve you for free
you shouldn’t be serving anyone for free. your employer should be paying you for your work. but you are being exploited by your owners. they are very happy they can cheap out on you.
why wouldn’t I hate both of you?
because it’s not the customer’s job to pay for your work. that’s the job of your boss. no other industry accepts anything else than that. and then also consider that there are places that manage to be even worse where the boss requires all tips to be handed over.
your owners have done a great job into brainwashing you to divide your own kind with hate. they can be proud of you. don’t expect any bonus though.
You’re failing the basic point. It’s a tip. It’s optional. You want security go for a job that guarantees it. Until servers become scarce businesses won’t change. Either way, not the customer’s problem.
… so you can save 20% on your bill?
In this economy? 15% is the new 20%.
Not if they raised the prices 20%, you wouldn’t have the choice to leave a bad tip.
Well other than by not going, but then good.
Tbf, while the system exists as it does, not tipping the workers only hurts the workers you supposedly support, their employers don’t care because they got theirs already and there’s a revolving door of people who need work bad enough when the worker gets fed up.
If you actually wanted to help those workers you’d have to entirely not support businesses that use the tipping model by “not going there” and only go to ones that don’t. Or you could go, but while there try and unionize servers, I suppose. But then when the workers strike for the thing you want you’ll still have to not cross the picket line so it’s the same in the end just more effective.
I practice what I preach btw, I only go to restaurants that don’t run off tips for the most part, and I tip when I do happen end up at one of those places. Sometimes I’ll tip even at places that don’t really “run off tips” but I want to help out a bit, like my local taco truck, I love them so much and don’t mind throwing them an extra $2 to show my appreciation, they’re not rich people it’s just a family trying to get by, with great prices no less.
To summarize: I don’t pass out info on unionizing, but I do support non-tipping businesses on average and still don’t fuck the workers over in a misguided attempt to hurt their boss when I do end up at a tipping place.
This is it 100%.
I’m shocked at the amount of responses here willing to make the workers suffer so that they can continue getting their food/drinks and supporting the owners taking advantage of the system.
What did you expect? They come from non tipping cultures. Where wait staff make livable wages. Not their fault we are incapable of paying people enough to live.
Tipping culture does exist in europe, but first of all, it isn’t nearly as “mandatory” as it is in the US, and second of all we tip way less. There isn’t a fixed percentage you “have to” tip. Usually, if the waiter was nice, it’s just rounding up to an even sum. At least here in germany.
When in rome, do as the Romans do. You may not agree with it, but it’s how it works here and not doing it is taking advantage of a worker not the restaurant
No it’s not. The only one taking advantage of workers is the restaurant owner.
If tipping is optional, why the hell would anyone “choose” to pay more? Imagine if I sold you a phone and said you can buy this phone for $500 or you can optionally pay an extra $100 and get literally exactly the same product. That’s tipping.
If tipping is mandatory, then make it clear beforehand that there is a mandatory fee and how much it is.
Or just gasp include it in the price like civilised countries…
If you raise prices then fewer people will eat at your restaurant because the prices are too high.
Then your restaurant is too expensive to operate, this is very basic economics.
Restaurants are basically always operating on a razor thin margin.
I see them open and close every year in my city. Restaurants coming and going like a revolving door. The commercial landlords stay the same though.
Restaurants are notoriously difficult to run profitably (non-paywalled: https://archive.is/cQ2pB). I’m a patron of a lot of local restaurants and they definitely open and close a lot more than pretty much any other business I can think of (except maybe vape shops, remember those?).
Landlords are definitely an issue that needs to be handled as well but that doesn’t absolve the employer of paying their people a living wage. Tipping culture in general needs to die off.
If that’s not possible but they believe in their business, they could consider a different business model, maybe become an employee co-op so the employees have a stake and could see the fruits of their own labor one day.
This is the dumbest possible take on this matter.
Like, customers are stupid enough to both ignore that they need to add 20% on top of the bill, and still tip? What?!
We’re talking about irrational behaviour by customers and you’re surprised that it happens? Why do you think entire industries routinely use hidden fees that dramatically raise the final price above the advertised price?
Because it works! You may not like it, I certainly don’t like it, but I can’t dispute it because it does in fact work.
We’re talking about irrational behaviour by customers
No, we are not. The article is about foreigners in the US not tipping, which is not irrational behaviour, at all.
Why do you think entire industries routinely use hidden fees that dramatically raise the final price above the advertised price?
Because some governments, especially the US government, would rather punish their citizens than the companies scamming them.
Regardless, anyone in the US who is economically conscious enough to choose to eat out or not depending on prices, would inevitably take tipping into consideration, and anyone who isn’t, wouldn’t. The alternative would be people who cannot afford eating out not tipping, equally screwing over service workers, so your point is moot.
So, you are actually defending intentionally misleading your customers?
Everyone in the west knows about tipping. No one is being misled. There have been many attempts to run restaurants with higher prices but no tipping. They always go out of business.
Everyone in the west knows about tipping
That’s a bold assumption. I’m in the west too. Tipping is not a thing here (at least not in that way). Having a price on the menu and asking for more is also frowned upon here, not to mention illegal.
But the prices are already too high because of the expected tipping? Are you counting on people to eat at the restaurant because they didn’t expect to pay more and you can secretly price gouge them at the exit?
If anything the total expected price for a meal will come down because servers will be paid the fair market rate for their labour and not the current guilt trip percentages… the rise in prices won’t exceed the savings from not tipping.
It is literally the exact same price.
They don’t do it because then they have to pay taxes on those tips
If you go someplace and get waited on, and you KNOW that not tipping them means you basically took their labor for free, you are also an asshole. If you think not owning the business abdicates you from that, then you are just as bad as the business owner who thinks the custom abdicates them from paying a living wage. You’re not a crusader for justice, you’re a cheap jerk.
So the restaurant owner is taking advantage of the worker but suddenly it’s my fault?
Nah, fuck tipping. Pay a livable wage.
people like you, believing this kind of bullshit propaganda pushed by business owners lobby, are the reason why things are getting so bad in the US… next thing you’ll tell me unions are bad and affordable healthcare is some communist bullshit.
if the business is not paying their employees livable wage they should not work there and the business should go bankrupt. yes, there are many people who wouldn’t find any other job right now. and they can choose to suffer temporary unemployment now or accept to live indentured life forever.
history clearly shows that workers not accepting unbearable conditions ultimately leads to improvement for everyone. guilt-tripping customers into giving alm to employees instead of paying them actual wages is just postponing the inevitable.
Oh do fuck off with that. The customer isn’t taking advantage of the worker or the resturant. The employer is taking advantage of the workers.
If it’s not optional. Include it in the price up front so we all know what we’re paying.
Most people from a non tipping culture don’t know how to tip. They don’t know how much, is it inappropriate, do the stuff get it or does management steal it. Really is a big deal.
you mean “when in a dystopian exploitative society, do as the dystopian exploitative societies do”? :)
I understand your point of view, and even to a certain degree agree (too bad it’s about tipping because fuck that). But these are not normal tourists you are getting, that did any kind of research. These people are here to drink beer and shout at each other, and are already very upset that everything is so expensive.
They are from Rome though…
So, when in Nazi Germany… do as the Nazis do?
This is the way, both for tipping and other local customs.
Rome has no tipping culture
These people are shit.
The cash registers are ringing, the beer is flowing and the tables are full.
So there is money to pay staff, right?
Should we pay an actual wage?
NO! ITS EVERYONE ELSE WHO ARE WRONG!
Fuck american tipping culture… Pay your staff fair…
#PAY YOUR FUCKING STAFF
America once again showing the world what a dystopian shit show it is. People are travelling to what they think is a developed country and so rightly assume all workers are paid a decent wage. Certainly European visitors would assume that. Highlights once again the need for a minimum wage and union support for workers.
Why would they assume that? America is famously a shitty country for workers. You’d have to know nothing about the country you’re visiting to not know that
Why do North Americans tip when they go to Europe?
Because they were too stupid to check the local customs before the trip. And it shows, not only with the tipping, but with a lot of problems they cause.
So its safe to say that they assumed…which is what MnemonicBump is vilifying the whole world for doing in the US.
Literally what everyone else said, we’re an uneducated shithole. Europeans should know that. I’m not vilifying the rest of the world, I’m holding them to a higher standard, because once again (and I cannot emphasize this enough), the U.S. is a bad place to be. Listen to your travel advisories, they’re actually minimalizing how bad it is
So you think football fans that would go to the USA under the current political situation are the best and brightest from other countries?
You know what, fair enough
Are you saying that because the US is known to be a shothole in general, people should know/assume this very specific thing? You can not make decisions on knowledge you do not possess.
No, I’m saying that people shouldn’t be surprised when the customs are different in the country they didn’t research because they thought they understood it well enough from the memes
Because we’re an uneducated shithole, obviously 😝
Why would you assume they know about employment norms?
Because it’s normal to learn some things about the country that you’re visiting before you go, and it’s not a exactly a secret that the U.S. isn’t doing well right now
Is it normal to look up employment conditions? I don’t think it is.
Whether or not a country has a tippsung culture is one of the first things that basically any travel brochure will mention, so yes. You should know how to order and pay for food in the country you are visiting. It’s very basic stuff
Who still believes the US is a developed nation anymore?
Fighting back against what? Pay your employees.
How is adding a required 20% gratuity to a bill at a restaurant not false advertising? The restaurant advertises the food costs X dollars, then you get your bill and it’s now 20% higher?
Exactly, it’s not only deceptive but also ignoring the fact that many visitors are likely not earning on par with people in New York and are making decisions about where to eat based on the advertised prices.
All these bars and restaurants talking about how busy they’ve been and have massively increased business during the world cup. They’re aware of the tipping problem yet still somehow can’t find the cash to cover the difference so that their staff get a normal wage.
They could share some of their revenue windfall with the wait staff. But instead they complain to news outlets and add an automatic 20% markup without prior notice to extract even more money from the visitors.
And it’s already higher from the tax! Lol
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But they only want to buy the food, not the gratitude.
From the perspective of the rest of the world, the US is really weird about prices.
Agreed; in Europe the price on the shelf is what you pay at the register. In the US, sales tax still hasn’t been added in to the price displayed on the shelf so it’s anyone’s guess what the actual price is.
And dont forget to tip your walmart cashier 20%!
Oh what ever shall we do? The cash registers are bursting with cash due to the influx of visitors… but they’re not tipping the servers.
I see absolutely no way that employers could make the situation fairer for servers, even if it were only for the duration of the event.
Gosh, if only there were some way!
Pay wages wtf. Usa sucks so hard
Protecting the waiters and barkeepers from what? If they just had normal minimum wage rules, and service was included in the price, they would not need “protection” from a self-inflicted problem.
Note that if a worker fails to get to minimum wage through tips, they are owed minimum wage by the employer.
However, minimum wage is pretty crap.
Your point stands that compensation should be baked in of course, it is just that normal minimum wage does kick in if the tips fail.
And tips are normally reported as a percentage of gross sales. Technically you can report less, but thats a good way to get catch a tax audit, and if the total tips reported from the restaurant fall too low the whole place will be audited. If your actual tips are short for the day the standard practice is to report the normal percentage and eat the loss.
No, that is not normal practice. If you do that, you aren’t just eating the loss of what your employer should have paid you, you would be paying taxes on money you didn’t make.
I had a manager at a bar try to feed me that line after a very slow shift and I refused. Anyone pushing that as standard practice either has been direly mislead, or is screwing you over for the company’s profit.
Wow, for real? This is a good argument in support of abolishing tipped wages. Is there anything you can point to for that being standard practice so my source isn’t just an internet person? It’s clearly not going to be written down anywhere, so I’m looking for an article or written testimony and not finding anything
That does not say over report your tips to the IRS if tips are so low they would have forced your employer to pay a higher wage.
I could see making that judgement call if the employer is a dick but customers are usually exceptionally generous tip wise, and you had an isolated slow night. However if day to day the tips are normal, then taking the hit for your employer is just a recipe for continued exploitation.
Not it doesnt say to over report your tips, but it does say that if you or your employer report under a certain percent of sales as tips, exactly what percentage they wont say, that theyll audit you, and that that percentage is at least 8%.
Supporters say the move is intended to protect American servers
Protecting the servers from the customers!!This is a joke, right? If you really wanted to protect American servers you pay them respectable wages.
