• teagrrl@lemmy.ml
    153·
    16 hours ago

    the lemmyworlds and their orbiters are gonna be upset about this one

  • Soolonkivi@lemm.ee
    36·
    12 hours ago

    There will be violence in Ukraine regardless of whether weapons are sent there or not. The second option will make it so there’s noone to police the russians. Pretty much like palestinians can’t do much about israelis slaughtering them.

    • Bloomcole@lemmy.world
      62·
      11 hours ago

      NATO had buit the largest of any European armies there and they were slaughtering the ethnic Russians, nobody was crying about policing them were they?

    • prototype_g2@lemmy.ml
      83·
      1 day ago

      hmm… And why would you say supporting Russia and Palestine count has “understanding geopolitics”? I say this as someone who does not know too much about it.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
        111·
        18 hours ago

        Both work against US Imperial Hegemony. Palestinian liberation is fully supported as it’s a national liberation movement for people subjected to settler-colonial genocide, critical support for Russia is due to it currently working against US dominance, which is the primary obstacle for Humanity to progress economically into a more equitable global system.

      • REEEEvolution@lemmygrad.ml
        183·
        1 day ago

        Both Palestine and Russia are on the western “to be conquered”-list. The difference that Russia can muster enough military power to directly oppose those plans. Palestine is in amuch worse position. Both however, are support worthy because of their place on that list.

        • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
          25·
          1 day ago

          Question: If Trump reverses the direction of US foreign policy, and starts openly seeking for Ukraine to be conquered and have its resources and land taken by Russia and the US, would it become support worthy because of its place on that list?

          How about Canada? If he starts trying to conquer Canada (not that I think he would, I think it is pure posturing) would it then start needing Lemmygrad’s support?

          • REEEEvolution@lemmygrad.ml
            161·
            1 day ago

            That would make both states just two more puppet states the US eventually shot in the head. At no point did these states oppose the US empire, they were just good lapdogs until daddy US took them behind the shed and put a bullet to their head.

            • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
              29·
              1 day ago

              I want to ask about how strongly Russia’s economy is doing, and how they are rising and NATO is falling apart and the EU is going to all crumble and freeze in the dark with no fossil fuels while Russia stands strong, and how that all ties in with this whole theory, but I have lost interest.

              I wish you luck with your geopolitical theories. Y’all are weird.

              • REEEEvolution@lemmygrad.ml
                8·
                16 hours ago

                Well, you deserve an answer regarding your economic question for the way. Russias economy is doing pretty well, its government used the time from 2014 onwards to create alternatives to western markets. For example gas and oil go to India(who resells some to the EU) and China now. And the US who, of course, does not comply with the sanctions. Another factor of Russias resilience to western sanctions is the historical fact that the west sanctions non-western countries all the time. This created a situation in which most of the world is under western sanctions of varous kinds, the sanctioned countries are less inclined to follow western dictates regarding Russia. So Russia still can trade with most of the world.

                Meanwhile Europe did expect to get cheap gas as always no matter how much it antagonized Russia. Unfortunately for them, Russia did not renew the delivery contract it had with the EU countries(which would guarantee delivery for a pre-settled price). Leading to the EU having to buy Russian gas on the spot market (highly variable prices). Some EU countries did not antagonize Russia as much, and thus had their contract renewed, thney got fucked another way by big daddy Washington. With the US blowing up Northstream 2 and Ukraine stopping transit over its territory, the EU is physically cut off from Russian gas and and has to find alternatives fast.

                One adress was Qatar, who can not cover the demand. Another was the US, who can but wants multiple times what Russia demanded. Furthermore, in either case the delivery would happen in liquified form. Which is ecologically problematic to say the least.

                Liquidification requires lots of energie and produces a shitload of CO2 emissions. Driving it over by special ships (of which not enough exist) again pumps lots of CO2 out and poisons the oceans because the large ship machines are using the absolute worst for fuel. That stuff then has to get on land, sufficient terminals only existed in Spain, in Germany they had to be built ignoring safety standards, because they were needed asap. The US gas is extracted from shale, as a side effect of shale oil extraction. This process poisons the land and water, leading to tab water being flamable in many parts of the US.

                Overall this means rising energy costs in the west, which means less favourable conditions of energy intensive companies. The US solves that way by pulling all restrictions regarding shale oil extraction, digging up Alaska and so on and providing tax incentives for companies moving to the US - in short: They loot their vassal states in Europe.

                Europe is fucked. Which, of course, leads to tensions within NATO. Especially as the US wants the euros to shoulder the cost of their occupation now, too. Teh EU countries have already been weakened by austerity and neoliberal politics, now have to pump billions into their militaries. Said money is created via debt on one side, via further cuts on social services on the other, creating internal tensions. Said tensions can be observed by the rise of the far right in every EU country.

                Another reason for inter NATO and EU tensions is the fact that the countries in the Eu who did not antagonize Russia, now also are fucked. Because the US and it’s ukranian dog blocked direct pipelines.

                So put together the situation, the EU got fucked by the US and its own stupidity, Ukraine got fucked by NATO, EU, US and its own stupidity, Russia got away cleanly, the US got away cleanly at the cost of its imperial periphery. Climate Change won big. Humanity lost big.

                “To be an enemy of the United States is risky, to be an ally is fatal.”

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
        103·
        18 hours ago

        If you’re describing Marxist-Leninists as being interchangeable with “tankies,” and MLs are by far the most common form of Marxist and Socialist world-wide, what’s the point in denoting the top-left quadrant as “Socialist/Anarchist?” Moreover, Anarchists are not a monolith, many don’t support continuing the war.

        I think the original is more generous, anti-war-ism is genuinely a relatively positive way of putting it even if critical support for Russia is deemed to be “fully knowledgeable.” The original fully acknowledges the principles of never striking first millitarily as a viewpoint with understandable moral basis, while also suggesting that that isn’t the complete picture.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
            83·
            17 hours ago

            I don’t think you’re accurately describing the reasons Russia invaded Ukraine, the material reality points more towards Russia wanting to thoroughly demillitarize Ukraine by any means necessary and certify Ukrainian neutrality with NATO, rather than joining it.

            As for standing for Socialism and the liberation of the working class, the majority of Marxists believe that the current largest obstacle in that path globally is the US Empire, and US Hegemony. Russia poses less of a threat to Socialism worldwide than the US by virtue of not having nearly the power of the US. I have no doubt that the Russian Federation would be just as exploitative of the Global South if they were in the same position as the US Empire, but they aren’t, and instead their path to further profits relies on dethroning the US. This dethroning of the US is also necessary for Socialists, hence critical support insofar as it appears to be working against the US Empire.

            Let’s consider the opposite viewpoint, though. What happens if Ukraine, against all odds, succeeds in beating back Russia, maintains millitarization, and joins NATO? Russia further weakens, and becomes folded into subjugation under the US Empire. This likely results in opening up of some of Russia’s assets to foreign plundering, strengthens NATO (the US Empire’s millitary wing, essentially), and thus also weakens the position of the Global South.

            What most Marxists support is a quick end to the war, via peace deals. The US continuing the war in order to shackle Ukraine with massive IMF loans and secure ownership of key resources and minerals stands in the way of that, and wishes to prolong the war so they can carve out as much value out of Ukraine as they can. Increasingly, Ukrainians themselves want the war to end, rather than sacrificing themselves for US profits, even if it means Russian victory. There is no actual path to victory for Ukraine without NATO full-on joining in, causing a catastrophic level of death and destruction.

            What should a Socialist side with, in this situation? Where is the path to the best possible outcome, in your opinion?

  • tory@lemmy.worldEnglish
    38·
    15 hours ago

    Israel has controlled the USG for decades now. We support Israel because they have been intricately and impressively spying on us since at least the 1980s and bought and paid for most of our politicians. It’s just that simple, they own our politicians, and therefore: when they do heinous evil, our politicians look away.

    Ukraine was invaded by our largest rival on the world stage as a power grab, and NATO decided to help.

    The two situations are not comparable in the slightest.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
      102·
      13 hours ago

      Other way around, the US supports Israel because it secures the US Empire’s interests in the region. Israel does not have nearly the power necessary to control the US, this line of thinking fails to analyze the real standings of the two countries. Presumably unintentionally on your part, the “Israel controls the US” narrative is actually pushed heavily by anti-semites, it perpetuates the notion that Jewish people control the world in a manner that recognizes the genocide of Palestinians. This is why correct analysis is important, as false conclusions aid the fascists. Anti-Zionism is correct, as is Palestinian liberation, but the US is not a victim here but is intentionally perpetuating it.

      As for NATO and Ukraine, NATO countries are “helping out” not out of any moral reason, but to make hefty profits off of IMF loans and resource/mineral contracts. Additionally, Russia is not the US Empire’s largest rival on the world stage, China is. It’s true that Russia goes against the US, but it hasn’t been a world power since the dissolution of the USSR, when the reintroduction of Capitalism obliterated Russia’s economy.

  • yistdaj@pawb.social
    178·
    2 days ago

    I feel like you’ve built two straw-men and conflated them together. I haven’t seen anybody arguing either case on the left side of the meme in response to the images depicted (or similar) on the right side of the meme. People wanting to send weapons to Ukraine generally tend to also say it doesn’t have a Nazi problem (and may compare Russia with Nazis), and people wanting pacifism in Palestine also don’t like weapons and support sent to Israel.

    • -6-6-6-@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
      61·
      18 hours ago

      I don’t want weapons sent to Nazis in Ukraine that are going to be Europe’s new flavor of domestic terrorist when the funding and weapons run dry because Europe thinks cutting all their social services is enough to do a “Slava Ukraini!” :D

      Surely this wont spawn a new generation of right-wing domestic terrorists in Europe that have an easily antagonized base already susceptible to right-wing propaganda. Not at all. Then again, the west truly sows what it reaps.

      • yistdaj@pawb.social
        2·
        13 hours ago

        This comment section wasn’t so full or censored when I commented that, and I know the ones I saw before they were censored weren’t saying that.

          • yistdaj@pawb.social
            1·
            13 hours ago

            It’s good, I would have thought the same if I were to stumble on it now. Somebody must have provided an extremely quick downvote, because I hadn’t downvoted you

  • eldavi@lemmy.mlEnglish
    3421·
    2 days ago

    the comments and the downvotes would be fascinating if it weren’t so clear that they come from a place of deeply ingrained willful ignorance.

    even the american liberal media is starting to admit that this is true, yet american liberals clutch onto it for whatever reason and i wish i could understand why.

    • Anarcho-Bolshevik@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
      334·
      2 days ago

      My guess is that their thinking is based on the sunk cost fallacy. The Western ruling class has been wasting everybody’s tax dollars on this conflict for several years now and nobody wants to see all of that dosh go to waste by letting Kiev and Moscow sign a peace treaty that inhibits NATO expansion.

      What I find upsetting is how so many people can dismiss the antisemites in the Ukrainian military and other institutions with half-baked excuses like ‘it’s okay because the neo-Nazis are all gone now’ (which they aren’t), ‘it’s okay because they have a Jewish president’ (who isn’t fixing the problem), and ‘it’s okay because Russia’s got neo-Nazis too’ (which is irrelevant; they aren’t the ones benefitting from our tax dollars). I know that it doesn’t bother neoclassical liberals to keep beating their war drums, but that they can gloss over Ukrainian antisemitism as a nonissue and an open and shut case… just astonishes me.

      • silverlose@lemm.eeEnglish
        19·
        15 hours ago

        Maybe we have a basic understanding of geopolitics and the facts. Like Ukraine never had a Nazi problem. How could you compare a dictatorship to a free democracy and call the democracy Nazis like hello?

  • softcat@lemmy.caEnglish
    167·
    2 days ago

    I’m interested to hear from someone that will disprove this, surely there are good examples given the voting on this.

    • Pherenike@lemmy.ml
      364·
      2 days ago

      Why do you always think it’s Russian trolls? Is there really nothing criticizable anymore about this war romance y’all got going for Ukraine? Any critical minds just have to be ‘Putin’s puppies’? I’m so fucking tired of this simplistic ass Marvel heroes viewpoint.

      • PotatoLibre@feddit.it
        719·
        2 days ago

        Hard to call “critical mind” anyone who compare those two conflicts in such a gross way.

        • Pherenike@lemmy.ml
          223·
          2 days ago

          Yes, you’re right. We should definitely send more military aid to Palestine.

          • PotatoLibre@feddit.it
            421·
            2 days ago

            Don’t you feel a bit ashame with that childish argument?

            Ever heard about nuances? World isn’t just white and black. Grow up.

            • m532@lemmygrad.ml
              51·
              23 hours ago

              They always tell you that “no black and white” thing, but in my experience, that’s just made up bullshit to cover up evil.

            • Samsuma@lemmy.ml
              192·
              2 days ago

              Enlighten us with these “nuances” you speak of. Clearly you know better than everyone else in this thread, so why not share your wisdom to the class?

              • PotatoLibre@feddit.it
                417·
                2 days ago

                I feel it will be kinda wasted time, my comments always got cowardly banned in this circlejerk called lemmy.ml, people has very shaky legs.

                I’m pretty new to Lemmy, but I start ti undertstand how these places works, and jezz, lemmy.ml seems a spin off of RT.

                • Poliverso@feddit.itEnglish
                  1·
                  7 hours ago

                  in this circlejerk called lemmy.ml, people has very shaky legs

                  Lemmy is not Reddit. Instances are administered by administrators who dictate the general rules and each community is managed by moderators who dictate specific rules. In this case, you are posting provocative comments, forcing the rules of the community in which this discussion is developing and going against the common feeling of that community (= more briefly, you are trolling). If you do not agree with the tone that is developing in a certain community, you can mute it. Not only is no one forcing you to comment, but it is not advisable to do so, because here people do not want to argue, but to discuss. In particular, you are doing something very incorrect: you are criticizing the methods and environment of a community that resides in an instance other than the one you are registered in. This is not acceptable! As far as I am concerned, no one should be allowed to give lessons to those who manage instances other than the one you are registered in. This way of doing things leads to a worsening of the climate of the discussion, to tensions between administrators and above all to the fact that I, as administrator of Poliverso, have to receive mountains of reports.

                  The Fediverso is beautiful because everyone can go to the places where they can feel better, but it should not be used to ruin the discussion environment for those who do not think like you.

                • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
                  151·
                  1 day ago

                  Don’t you feel a bit ashame with that childish argument?

                  Ever heard about nuances? World isn’t just white and black. Grow up.

                • REEEEvolution@lemmygrad.ml
                  17·
                  1 day ago

                  I’m pretty new to Lemmy, but I start to understand how these places works, and jezz, lemmy.ml seems a spin off of RT.

                  Lemmy does not have the bot farms curating pro-western opinions. If you adopted those opinions via osmosis (happens to the best of us, that’s why those bots exist.), their abscence is bound to weird you out.

            • Pherenike@lemmy.ml
              131·
              2 days ago

              It’s precisely what I’m trying to get you to understand my dear, the world isn’t black and white. But as soon as I criticize anything about Ukraine and the EU, I get called a Russian troll.

              So what am I missing about Palestine? Why shouldn’t we send them some weapons and tanks?

              • PotatoLibre@feddit.it
                49·
                2 days ago

                Dude, you talked about weapons, not me. I just pointed out those conflicts are quite different and that comparison is biased and wrong.

                It’s a very poor argument.

                • Pherenike@lemmy.ml
                  152·
                  2 days ago

                  Dude

                  I am a woman

                  you talked about weapons, not me

                  It’s what the meme above is about

                  I just pointed out those conflicts are quite different and that comparison is biased and wrong.

                  You didn’t say why, what is your reasoning behind that (because there is none) so you might as well have said pink microwave

                  It’s a very poor argument

                  You, on the other hand, have no argument and no knowledge to defend it. Or you don’t understand what I wrote and have simply lapped up EU propaganda, so you don’t know how to debate.

                  Don’t you feel a bit ashame

                  Don’t attack if you plan on running afterwards

      • FelixCress@lemmy.world
        526·
        2 days ago

        Why do you always think it’s Russian trolls

        Can also be Putin’s useful idiots. Take your pick.

    • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
      302·
      2 days ago

      Well you see, as you increasingly slip into McCarthyist paranoia, your definition of “Russian troll” is going to grow ever more expansive as it approaches “everyone who disagrees with me”. As a result, it’s going to seem like there’s more of them to you

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
        71·
        18 hours ago

        To be clear, Lemmy is developed and maintained by Communists, there are going to be many Communists on Lemmy in general. Going around and calling Communists McCarthyian terms like “commie” is just stoking rage, I don’t see what that fixes.

  • Thekingoflorda@lemmy.world
    1720·
    2 days ago

    Love how in the first image you show the best part of the Palestinian people (which I do think is very much in the majority), but then in the second image you show the worst part of the Ukrainian people (which are very much in the minority).

      • dnick@sh.itjust.works
        11·
        14 hours ago

        That’s hardly a ‘lib move’, more like an ingrained human reaction to justify practically every action ever.

      • Pherenike@lemmy.ml
        191·
        2 days ago

        Whoever doesn’t obey USA’s commands, USA calls a dictator, and then starts a vilifying campaign to justify intervening and getting rid of him/them. The EU always plays along and certainly Ukraine will not be an exception because it’s all business to them (Putin included) and war is the most profitable of all businesses.

      • Thekingoflorda@lemmy.world
        15·
        23 hours ago

        Are you saying I am doing that here? The only thing I said was saying that the image is a little bit weird. Or do you think the majority of ukraine are nazi’s?

        • Samsuma@lemmy.ml
          4·
          18 hours ago

          Are you saying I am doing that here?

          To be precise, mostly the latter of my comment applies, yes.

          Do you think the majority of ukraine are nazi’s?

          Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what I think, see the linked posts for details, feel free to challenge any of the sources while providing your own.

          • Thekingoflorda@lemmy.world
            11·
            17 hours ago

            I don’t see a source that claims that anywhere near the majority of Ukrainians are nazi’s. Would you mind pointing me to that source?

            • Samsuma@lemmy.ml
              2·
              14 hours ago

              I don’t see how my comment could be interpreted as claiming “majority”. The point is, you’re downplaying the rampant Nazi problem and its effects within Ukraine, which is ingrained in many aspects (see the sources) and practically institutionalized. the fact that you want to contest this speaks volume to your character.

    • Samsuma@lemmy.ml
      9·
      2 days ago

      Do you find it hard to sleep at night, knowing that the Spectre could be lurking in your room?