Capitalism for when there is scarcity (building hi-tech for example) state controlled “socialism” for things needed by everyone (schools, hospitals, roads, internet) seems like a smart start.
Food could go under capitalism if heavy regulated, govt can sponsor art etc. Vote for what suits you.
Yeah and no more lobbying or mega rich(like 10M€ max until at least everyone can eat, read and go to the hospital for free).
The thing is, when someone starts getting very wealthy, they inevitably errode the checks and balances put in place to curtail their power and to protect the poor. For example, electricity used to be nationalised in my country until a few years ago. The state company in charge of it would seek to stay near the floating line, not to make profits, and power was very affordable. Before the pandemic, it got privatised and prices went through the roof, we’re talking 1000% increases in some cases, because now they had to make money for the shareholders.
This could only work if the people were very conscious and politically educated, so that they could prevent these things from happening. But just one bad generation can see those hard earned protections and rights erroded.
Exactly. That’s why simply regulating capitalism won’t work. It has been regulated before, and eventually, little by little, greed wins out, politicians take bribes to lower regulations, and this tension raises again until we earn back what we lost. Rinse and repeat. It’s not sustainable.
when someone starts getting very wealthy, they inevitably errode the checks and balances put in place
The solution there is to not let ANYBODY get that wealthy. Tax the shit out of the rich until their net worth is in an acceptable range. Let’s say that we set a minimum level. If you don’t meet that level, government helps you. Helps you with a house, food income, etc. Then allow the richest person to be worth 10x that of the poorest. If your worth goes over that, taxes will rise to 100%. You simply don’t earn anything more until your worth lowers.
Its a very rough idea, but its just to, well, get the idea. Communism does NOT work, never has, never will. It requires stripping all freedoms, loads of coercion, lots of horror and terrorizing of the population to make it work. Too many people always dream of working in a vegetable garden under communism. Are they really THAT naive? Are they 5? Dear god, read some history.
I fully agree with you that capitalism, as its currently running unhindered, is a BAD thing. It needs to be limited, curtailed BY A LOT. But in its core its not bad. It gives people the freedom to trade directly, unhindered by government to get things done in the most efficient way. And like it or not, its a success story. Its why the west became as dominant as it is. Leaving people free to do things the way they want to do it is nice AND efficient. Problem is that you need to put limits, like “Don’t dump industrial waste, you make it, you recycle it” which now we don’t. THAT is the problem
Capitalism didn’t get the west wealthy. That was all the colonialism and imperialism taking wealth away from other places through slavery and exploitation. Capitalism just profited off of the fact Europe was already rich and powerful to further that divide.
Historically socialists have been better at utilizing scarce resources. Look at the 50 percent economic growth per decade achieved by soviet centralized economic planning before calculators and machine learning were a thing.
IDK but I feel like the winners of WW2 didn’t really need to put a strain on anything to go forward extremely easily compared to before.
I don’t think you can judge how the superpowers advanced in the 1950-60-70 having the control over about everything versus how it is today. Also personally I’d like everyone to be included, not just the west + this or that but Africa, south America, etc. etc.
Pretty sure I got it from growth crystal, a very dry economics book. I dont remember by which metric but you could probably find it within the first few chapters.
I think you need to look in his ass, where he pulled that number from. These communist types really believe all this nonsense and just handwave all the famines, civil terrors, or just the fact that no communist system ever became a success. its all just for the common good, right?
I’ll partially repaste a reply I posted to another post for you. Communism SUCKS at resource management because one centralized corrupt system doesn’t know shit about what its doing whereas capitalist systems allow individual people to get the most efficient solutions possible. IT. WORKS. Yes, there are problems, fix those problems. Read the following. don’t TL;DR; because if you do then you just don’t care about reality, you just want to should slogans
why are so many people starving?
There are loads of reasons for people starving, but in democratic capitalist countries, people typically don’t starve. Don’t agree? Name one. There is poverty in the US for sure and capitalism in the US is an absolute shitshow, nobody would deny that. But people in the US rarely starve to death.
Wanna talk starvation? Lets talk starvation! Warning: All following links are wikipedia but have stomach churning content. Here be dragons, but please do read because you need to learn. Also note: All the following is from within the last century.
Quote from that page: The famine resulted from the combined effects of economic disturbance from the Russian Revolution, the Russian Civil War, and the government policy of war communism (especially prodrazvyorstka). It was exacerbated by rail systems that could not distribute food efficiently.
Fun quote: canibalism
Communism is awesome!
2: North Korean famine: estimated between 600,000 and 1 million deaths
Quote: Economic mismanagement and the loss of Soviet support caused food production and imports to decline rapidly. A series of floods and droughts exacerbated the crisis. The North Korean government and its centrally planned system proved too inflexible to effectively curtail the disaster.
Fun quote: uses of words such as ‘famine’ and ‘hunger’ were banned because they implied government failure
Quote: The major contributing factors in the famine were the policies of the Great Leap Forward (1958 to 1962) and people’s communes, launched by Chairman of the Chinese Communist Party Mao Zedong, such as inefficient distribution of food within the nation’s planned economy; requiring the use of poor agricultural techniques; the Four Pests campaign that reduced sparrow populations (which disrupted the ecosystem); over-reporting of grain production; and ordering millions of farmers to switch to iron and steel production.
Fun quote: Cannibalism, AGAIN
Communism is awesome!
Want to know more?
Communism wouldn’t have an upper class of “bosses”.
… I don’t even know where to begin with this one. What are you? 5?
Communism sucks and causes nothing but suffering. There is not even a fucking silver lining about it and people need to stop hippy-dippying communism. Its fucking evil.
Yes, capitalism as it currently runs is fucked up with problems. But at its core its the driver of success that got you your mobile phone in your hands. Use that mobile phone to fix those problems instead of dreaming of perfect mass murdering societies.
You’re literally blaming all these societies for famines where intense external causes are cited. And capitalism kills 20 million people a year, currently. Also, read Victorian holocausts
Yes, capitalism as it currently runs is fucked up with problems. But at its core its the driver of success that got you your mobile phone in your hands.
20 million deaths a year.
You know the Soviets came up with a lot of the tech that led to smartphones, with the rest of it coming from publicly funded research?
Use that mobile phone to fix those problems instead of dreaming of perfect mass murdering societies.
Isn’t trying to reform capitalism dreaming of perfect mass murdering societies?
You mean its impossible to tax people? Because it is. You just need better politicians. “There is no middle ground” is no argument, because there is. You just have your fingers in your ears shouting “LALALALALAA I CANNOT HEAR YOU”.
Communism is a laughingly naive argument. There are no communist success stories. There are loads of torture horror porn stories though, if you’re willing to read history. Maybe watch a good movie! Get “The chekist (1992)” somewhere. Then sit in a closet in fetal position for about a week or two (I never managed to finish it, its horrible, but a great movie nontheless) and when you come out maybe, just maybe you can understand a little bit about what communism really entails
We’re a dying species on a planet that will heat up until we’re all gone, do I really need another horror story ?
You mentioning the chekist is just the old and tired whataboutism where you point out horrors committed by the Soviets to justify your point of view.
I could give you horrific stories where people were tortured and/or killed because of corporate greed and/or imperialism. What good will that accomplish?
Will hearing that people were locked inside a sweatshop while it caught on fire change anything about your view of capitalism ?
People falling in poverty because they can’t pay medical bills, killing themselves because of their job, getting tortured for information they don’t have, seeing their leaders get overthrown and living in a military state because of that.
Are you capable of seeing the horrors wrought by capitalism, not just those in the past but also those we see every day, and answer the question “Would that have happened if the redistribution of resources was fair ?”
If you want a movie recommendation “Sugarland” (2014), it’s just a fun movie about sugar, showing how insidious and pervasive capitalists can be, don’t worry no torture porn here but you’ll still feel like shit at the end.
Let’s find a compromise between “equality” and “fuck you, all for me”.
That’s just a false compromise argument promoting a middle ground that doesn’t exist
Capitalism for when there is scarcity (building hi-tech for example) state controlled “socialism” for things needed by everyone (schools, hospitals, roads, internet) seems like a smart start.
Food could go under capitalism if heavy regulated, govt can sponsor art etc. Vote for what suits you.
Yeah and no more lobbying or mega rich(like 10M€ max until at least everyone can eat, read and go to the hospital for free).
The thing is, when someone starts getting very wealthy, they inevitably errode the checks and balances put in place to curtail their power and to protect the poor. For example, electricity used to be nationalised in my country until a few years ago. The state company in charge of it would seek to stay near the floating line, not to make profits, and power was very affordable. Before the pandemic, it got privatised and prices went through the roof, we’re talking 1000% increases in some cases, because now they had to make money for the shareholders.
This could only work if the people were very conscious and politically educated, so that they could prevent these things from happening. But just one bad generation can see those hard earned protections and rights erroded.
Basically, it only works if you can keep greedy people from expressing their greed. Evidently, not happening right now.
Exactly. That’s why simply regulating capitalism won’t work. It has been regulated before, and eventually, little by little, greed wins out, politicians take bribes to lower regulations, and this tension raises again until we earn back what we lost. Rinse and repeat. It’s not sustainable.
Its a very rough idea, but its just to, well, get the idea. Communism does NOT work, never has, never will. It requires stripping all freedoms, loads of coercion, lots of horror and terrorizing of the population to make it work. Too many people always dream of working in a vegetable garden under communism. Are they really THAT naive? Are they 5? Dear god, read some history.
I fully agree with you that capitalism, as its currently running unhindered, is a BAD thing. It needs to be limited, curtailed BY A LOT. But in its core its not bad. It gives people the freedom to trade directly, unhindered by government to get things done in the most efficient way. And like it or not, its a success story. Its why the west became as dominant as it is. Leaving people free to do things the way they want to do it is nice AND efficient. Problem is that you need to put limits, like “Don’t dump industrial waste, you make it, you recycle it” which now we don’t. THAT is the problem
Capitalism didn’t get the west wealthy. That was all the colonialism and imperialism taking wealth away from other places through slavery and exploitation. Capitalism just profited off of the fact Europe was already rich and powerful to further that divide.
Historically socialists have been better at utilizing scarce resources. Look at the 50 percent economic growth per decade achieved by soviet centralized economic planning before calculators and machine learning were a thing.
IDK but I feel like the winners of WW2 didn’t really need to put a strain on anything to go forward extremely easily compared to before.
I don’t think you can judge how the superpowers advanced in the 1950-60-70 having the control over about everything versus how it is today. Also personally I’d like everyone to be included, not just the west + this or that but Africa, south America, etc. etc.
This was before ww2, during the great break.
Look at this where? In which metric are you measuring economic growth?
Pretty sure I got it from growth crystal, a very dry economics book. I dont remember by which metric but you could probably find it within the first few chapters.
Cool, I checked out Growth Crystal and it looks like a PowerPoint presentation at a timeshare pitch.
Yes they’re trying to sell you on the idea of creating a dual currency system. They make a lot of money from doing that.
Did you know that owning a timeshare is a great investment opportunity?
I think you need to look in his ass, where he pulled that number from. These communist types really believe all this nonsense and just handwave all the famines, civil terrors, or just the fact that no communist system ever became a success. its all just for the common good, right?
Consider not assuming everyone on the internet is a guy. Also consider reading the English translation of growth crystal.
… What?
I’ll partially repaste a reply I posted to another post for you. Communism SUCKS at resource management because one centralized corrupt system doesn’t know shit about what its doing whereas capitalist systems allow individual people to get the most efficient solutions possible. IT. WORKS. Yes, there are problems, fix those problems. Read the following. don’t TL;DR; because if you do then you just don’t care about reality, you just want to should slogans
There are loads of reasons for people starving, but in democratic capitalist countries, people typically don’t starve. Don’t agree? Name one. There is poverty in the US for sure and capitalism in the US is an absolute shitshow, nobody would deny that. But people in the US rarely starve to death.
Wanna talk starvation? Lets talk starvation! Warning: All following links are wikipedia but have stomach churning content. Here be dragons, but please do read because you need to learn. Also note: All the following is from within the last century.
1: Russian famine: about five million deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921–1922 (famine caused directly by communism)
Quote from that page: The famine resulted from the combined effects of economic disturbance from the Russian Revolution, the Russian Civil War, and the government policy of war communism (especially prodrazvyorstka). It was exacerbated by rail systems that could not distribute food efficiently.
Fun quote: canibalism
Communism is awesome!
2: North Korean famine: estimated between 600,000 and 1 million deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine (Famine caused directly by communist government policies)
Quote: Economic mismanagement and the loss of Soviet support caused food production and imports to decline rapidly. A series of floods and droughts exacerbated the crisis. The North Korean government and its centrally planned system proved too inflexible to effectively curtail the disaster.
Fun quote: uses of words such as ‘famine’ and ‘hunger’ were banned because they implied government failure
Communism is awesome!
3: Chinese famine: 15 to 55 million deaths (yay!)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine (Caused directly by communist government policies)
Quote: The major contributing factors in the famine were the policies of the Great Leap Forward (1958 to 1962) and people’s communes, launched by Chairman of the Chinese Communist Party Mao Zedong, such as inefficient distribution of food within the nation’s planned economy; requiring the use of poor agricultural techniques; the Four Pests campaign that reduced sparrow populations (which disrupted the ecosystem); over-reporting of grain production; and ordering millions of farmers to switch to iron and steel production.
Fun quote: Cannibalism, AGAIN
Communism is awesome!
Want to know more?
Communism wouldn’t have an upper class of “bosses”.
… I don’t even know where to begin with this one. What are you? 5?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekism a nice side effect of communism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chekist < I F*$#king double dare you to watch that movie about the non existing upper class of bosses
In conclusion?
Communism sucks and causes nothing but suffering. There is not even a fucking silver lining about it and people need to stop hippy-dippying communism. Its fucking evil.
Yes, capitalism as it currently runs is fucked up with problems. But at its core its the driver of success that got you your mobile phone in your hands. Use that mobile phone to fix those problems instead of dreaming of perfect mass murdering societies.
You’re literally blaming all these societies for famines where intense external causes are cited. And capitalism kills 20 million people a year, currently. Also, read Victorian holocausts
20 million deaths a year.
You know the Soviets came up with a lot of the tech that led to smartphones, with the rest of it coming from publicly funded research?
Isn’t trying to reform capitalism dreaming of perfect mass murdering societies?
You mean its impossible to tax people? Because it is. You just need better politicians. “There is no middle ground” is no argument, because there is. You just have your fingers in your ears shouting “LALALALALAA I CANNOT HEAR YOU”.
Communism is a laughingly naive argument. There are no communist success stories. There are loads of torture horror porn stories though, if you’re willing to read history. Maybe watch a good movie! Get “The chekist (1992)” somewhere. Then sit in a closet in fetal position for about a week or two (I never managed to finish it, its horrible, but a great movie nontheless) and when you come out maybe, just maybe you can understand a little bit about what communism really entails
What does taxing people have to do with this?
We’re a dying species on a planet that will heat up until we’re all gone, do I really need another horror story ?
You mentioning the chekist is just the old and tired whataboutism where you point out horrors committed by the Soviets to justify your point of view. I could give you horrific stories where people were tortured and/or killed because of corporate greed and/or imperialism. What good will that accomplish?
Will hearing that people were locked inside a sweatshop while it caught on fire change anything about your view of capitalism ?
People falling in poverty because they can’t pay medical bills, killing themselves because of their job, getting tortured for information they don’t have, seeing their leaders get overthrown and living in a military state because of that.
Are you capable of seeing the horrors wrought by capitalism, not just those in the past but also those we see every day, and answer the question “Would that have happened if the redistribution of resources was fair ?”
If you want a movie recommendation “Sugarland” (2014), it’s just a fun movie about sugar, showing how insidious and pervasive capitalists can be, don’t worry no torture porn here but you’ll still feel like shit at the end.