I think the real division on the “left” can be boiled down to those using all the language and rhetoric of left wing ideology but in service of fascist and conservative ideas.
For example, tankies or people who have been brainwashed by tankies; a person can spend all day talking about how they support Palestine and BLM and LGBT rights etc. but then turn around and defend the CCP, which completely undermines any claim that they’re actually on the left/center.
So in that way it’s less of a “progressives never agree” and more of a “anti-progressive ideas are constantly pushed into progressive spaces to undermine them.”
Isn’t that the point of the meme? Leftists can share 94% of views, but if they disagree on one thing they are treated as the worst enemy, rather than the people who share 0% of the same views.
Correct, if those differences are irreconcilable. I can ally with lefties that want slightly different things, but “America is evil therefore Stalin wasn’t that bad” is not someone grounded in reality.
Don’t take this as Stalin defending, but if you are trying to accomplish movements to the Left and both Person A and Person B want Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, and Person C wants literal fascism, is Person B being a Stalin defender worth creating a 3 way battle when people who identify with C far outnumber A and B combined currently? That seems to go against what is strategically necessary in the US, at least.
I think it’s more important to build a cohesive worker movement that’s as large as possible before we move on to discussing Marxism vs Anarchism vs some other flavor of Leftism, at least in the US.
Person B want Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, and Person C wants literal fascism
Person B being a Stalin defender
They’re the same picture /s
But seriously, the only reason Stalin’s USSR wasn’t “fascist” is because fascism is explicitly a right aligned ideology, but it was essentially fascist in practice. His whole thing was totalitarian rule and blaming enemies of the state for any shortcomings, which is just fascism with a coat of paint.
I’m not disagreeing with you here on whether or not the USSR is good or bad, that’s not my point.
My point is that if both person A and person B want worker ownership and person C wants a dictatorship of Capitalism, then person A and B should ally, even if temporarily.
Person B is also a fascist, and should be let nowhere near power because they will purge person A the first second they can.
Those things people disgree on are entire political axioms, so yes it is much bigger than a meme. Tankies think strong men are a good thing, which should be antithetical to anyone with the faintest hint of actual big boy anarchy in their politics. Worshiping leaders OR positions is literally and directly antithetical to MUCH of the left.
OFC there will be infighting when most people don’t even understand what the left stands for. IMO, we shouldn’t even dignify tankies and other strong-men liking idiots with a label anywhere close to “left”. They’re just idiot fascists wearing a different coat to try and fit in.
I mean, you can use that same logic on the US government, even Democrat run ones, which have supported genocides in the past and even current ongoing ones, and have tried to stomp out left movements, been racist, sexist, and homophobic. But people have still supported the US and the Democratic party and called themselves leftist. The point is, I assume as I’m not a CCP Stan myself or anything, is to give critical support to back an actual socialist project and give a counterweight to a pure single superpower world (esp. When that superpower has destroyed or undermined almost every left project it can in the world). Critical support meaning you pick out the good from the bad, supporting the good and criticizing the bad. China actually puts a leash on its billionaires = good. But they seem to be forcing some cultural integration of Uyghurs = bad. But they’re providing lots of housing and cheap EV’s = good. But they can have bad working conditions = bad. But they’re helping support economies and infrastructure in the global South with the Belt and Road project = good. But they keep doing that shit with territory in the south seas = bad. But they seem to have a long-term plan for implementing communism that they are actually following = good. And so on. I do think some people go too far in being CCP supportive, but I also think some people on Lemmy go too far the other direction, and think everyone that gives the slightest critical support to China or analyzes some US propaganda on China a bit before swallowing it is a CCP troll.
In the end, it’s a mixed bag, but I do think there is some worth to not having a single hegemonic superpower in the world, so other leftist countries or colonized global south ones have alternative access to allies, trade, and support without bowing down to the US and their often reactionary policies. Cuba for example was doing pretty good until the Soviet Union fell and basically the only market became the western, US-controlled one that they had been mostly sanctioned the hell out of. I wish it was a better country than China, but hopefully they improve their social issues as they improve economically, which tends to be the pattern. I just wish they’d stop doing the aggressive maneuvers near the Philippines and Vietnam.
This is exactly what I see. Many people see critical support and assume it as uncritical support, then extrapolate nonsensical views from that. Like, if someone says they think it’s cool that China has high speed rail, that doesn’t mean they wish 100 Tianannmenn massacres annually and to personally fellate Xi.
Nah dude you got it all wrong, Tianannmenn square was a western psyop. and all those “prisons” in xianjiang are just really secure hotels or something idk.
Execution vans? never heard of them m8
But I’ve only seen good things about the CCP on TikTok.
And Tiananmen Square looks lovely.
I think it is often more subtle than something like Tankies defending the CCP or Russia. A lot of people who call themselves left or progressive still think the world just needs the “correct” strong-man, when one of the biggest defining things of “left” is going against engrained power structures.
While it is possible to be left-ish and support particular leaders, it is seldom a sign of an actually enlightened person if they think only a “strong man” can fix things. Tankies fit squarely in the center of that, but there are LARGE fringes where people seriously do not understand some of the core axioms of “left” politics while also not being full blown tankies.
[ In fake Scottish accent ] They’re natural enemies. Like fascists and leftists! Or neoliberals and leftists! Or moderates and leftists! Or leftists and leftists! Damn leftists! They ruined leftism!
You leftists sure are a contentious bunch.
YOU JUST MADE AN ENEMY FOR LIFE
The real lefty nemesis are all the feds who pretend to be leftists until they see any leftist doing any real leftism and then they immediately shove the boot all the way down their gullet
