Hey m@tes, as y’all know, this instance has been anti-corporate GenAI positive since it’s creation and as such we’ve typically allowed such content to be posted freely. However in the last few weeks we’ve had a bunch of drama from GenAI haters who insist on coming into our comms and starting slap-fights. This caused us to vote on a new rule to have the mandate to clear out this constant friction. This worked to an extent, but I think we can help foster a better community with the larger threadiverse.
One issue a lot of anti-GenAI people keep bringing is that while they can block dedicated comms like [email protected], they don’t have an easy option to avoid GenAI content in random other /0 comms as there’s no way to filter it out. This kind of content has been seen to cause a lot of strife, because people complain about its existence, while /0 admins and mods based on the above rule, tend to sanction those complaining. This then causes drama loops with /c/YPTB and /c/FuckAI etc.
There is a good point to be made here that while we don’t mind GenAI content in /0, there isn’t a reason to not help others avoid it. So we want to institute the following soft rule by now:
Simply tag your posts which consist of primarily GenAI content with the [] tag in their title. Not only will frontends like Tesseract will natively parse this as a tag and display it accordingly, but people who dislike such content, can simply filter it out of their feeds. Eventually lemmy will add tags which will make this tagging more seamless, but for now a manual tag in the title will suffice.
This rule only applies to posts in non-explicit GenAI comms. The assumption is that people can simply block those comms completely anyway.
As I said, this is a soft rule for now. Soft in the sense that you’re not going to be sanctioned for forgetting it, but we hope people will remind you to do so. This is a good-faith attempt by us to co-exist and help others avoid what they don’t want to stumble onto, much like [NSFW] tags. So I hope you’ll add do a good faith attempt to help us in this. Furthermore, people who come to posts tagged as GenAI explicitly to scold and start slap-fights, will give the admins and easier justification to clean up, since they could have just filtered out that content in the first place.
Cheers
deleted by creator
IMO the problem is a lack of tags on Lemmy, which are often used as content warnings. With a robust tagging system, people would be able to filter out tags they dislike, such as genAI or politics.
it seems to be for the better imo
That’s good I agree with this
Good, AI art fucking sucks.
Can I ask what compelled you to join db0 after reading the sidebar? Honestly curious. If I hated AI that much, after seeing the tagline, I would have noped out.
As someone who feels similarly about AI art, but joined db0 anyway: I like the other things they got going on and I’m not stupid enough to whine and complain about the one thing I don’t like. (I guess, technically this is doing some of that but shut up xD)
It’s like if I went to a bar that has a bunch of games in it, and one is a bunch of pool tables or something and I really hate pool, I’m not gonna throw a fuss demanding they remove it? Some people like it even if I think it’s not that cool.
I don’t think it was a prominent feature when I joined, AI imagery in general wasn’t quite as popular or sophisticated at the time. And even if I disagree with that point, it’s not a deal breaker and db0 is still far better than many other instances.
FYI: The “Generate Art” part of the sidebar tagline was there since day 1
I know, those are my favorite use cases 😏
Is AI porn better for the women or does it take away the jobs of context creators?
Removed by mod
Um what?
I guess they’re implying that AI generated CP might be reducing demand for real CP? I don’t even know how to feel about that, what a fucked world we live in
Ai generated cp is still cp and still illegal
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Yeah we need a clarification of that statement
Are you uh… speaking from experience?
Dude what the actual fuck???
You all seem so shocked. Are you all unaware that a common use of AI is the creation of sexual depictions of children? I’m not advocating it, I’m just stating it as a reality, because it is.
I don’t think it’s anywhere near as common as you’re trying to say it is, this is a common anti-AI rhetoric and it either comes from baseless fearmongering or people who do it themselves and believe everyone else does. I’ve been baselessly accused of viewing and making AI CSAM and even accused of having an “AI shotacon avatar” by anti-AI dipshits trying to bully me off the platform. Which already makes me question the frequency of how much this actually happens for real.
Can’t be art with no artist, just ‘generated illustration’
I like it. That’s the thing about art. Some people like it. Some people don’t. You don’t get to define what is or isn’t art for me. I get to define it for me. That’s what’s so awesome about it.
Also, get used to it. AI isn’t ever ever going away. This is just the beginning. So pace your hate.
It’s fine if people like it, it just gives me a gross and uncomfortable feeling when I see it and makes me sad that one of the first careers killed by AI could be illustrators.
This isn’t the first career to get steamrolled by new tech. That’s just how society works: new tools replace old jobs.
Did you feel this bad when factory workers in the Midwest lost jobs to robots and outsourcing? What about when textile machines wiped out jobs in Alabama? Or when electric streetlights put out-of-work the guys who used to light lamps by hand?
Did anyone mourn the bank tellers who lost their jobs to ATMs?
My point is, artists aren’t more special than the folks who came before. Tech changes things. It always has.
I was a professional artist for 35 years, I did design, illustration, layouts for marketing companies. Now AI can do all of that faster and better. A company would be crazy to pay me what I used to make. And you know what? I’m fine with that. I embraced it. I love new tech.
People who still want to paint/illustrate by hand can. People who still wanna buy their stuff can. Probably not full time job doing it anymore. Just like anything else. They are not special. MOST people work at jobs they don’t like to pay the bills, then do their passion on the side.
If ya have a family to feed, you don’t cry about not getting a job to illustrate the latest Flash comic book or your favorite DnD dungeon guide. You go get a job and put food on the table. And draw on the weekends.
Welcome to life. And we still have it way easier than the generations before us did. I know. Because I’m old. As bad as you think things are now, it’s better than when I was coming up.
Until we get UBI, we gotta deal with what we have. But the idiot capitalist duopoly here in the US that Lemmy worships, is very much against UBI, so that’s gonna take a while.
Meh, I love AI, so…
While art will likely never be completely replaced by AI due to passionate people doing it because they want to anyway, the fact that it is becoming less and less viable of a career path is depressing. Far less people will pursue art even as a hobby in a society that requires working and won’t pay for art.
I don’t think any Midwest factory workers particularly loved their job. There was little passion or soul behind it. Machines are meant to replace menial hard labor, not passion.
the fact that it is becoming less and less viable of a career path is depressing. Far less people will pursue art even as a hobby in a society that requires working and won’t pay for art.
But that is true about anything. Wood working, farming, furniture making, clothes making, soap making, journalists. Even before AI,people stopped paying well for journalism. And yes, some midwest people DID love their job. I know, because I grew up there in the 80’s when it all happened. I watched ENTIRE TOWNS die because of job loss. That’s way worse and more impactful that some dude not being able to draw comics like he dreamed of.
I’m not saying loss of jobs should be celebrated, I’m saying it’s no different that what has happened before. And I was also around in the 90’s and 00’s when mass layoff happened and white-color people shrugged and smugly said, “Learn to code.” To fucking farmers.
Now those same people are crying about “coding” jobs on the horizon of being eliminated.
The vast majority of people work jobs they don’t love and they aren’t passionate about. Artists are not more special than anyone else. People who are truly passionate and want to create, will keep creating. Just less will be able to do it as a sole source of income. But MOST people have never gotten to do their passion as a sole source of income.
Especially worldwide. Peopl are fucking spoiled. “Oh the UA is so hard now.” “So scary.” “Art jobs are going away!”
Ya’ll need to fucking go live in the real world and see how good we have it compared to everyone else. There are people that work their fingers to the bone, every day all day, just to survive. And do it all their lives.
And you people are crying about art jobs going away. Give me a fucking break!
Again, I’m not celebrating it. But that’s not where your “sad” should be aimed. Your “sad” should be aimed at the class warfare that happens everwhere.
Obviously many of us have it better in the US than most of the world, that doesn’t mean we can’t complain if it’s actively getting worse and harder to live. I can’t get enough work, I don’t eat enough and struggle to afford rent, my family was homeless in the past. While it’s better here and I’m not getting bombed like many people are, it doesn’t mean people in the US aren’t struggling too. I am sad at the class warfare aspect of AI more than anything, it is being used by the wealthy to increase their power and wealth further, and in my view by using their services we are aiding their goals, even if minimally.
Obviously many of us have it better in the US than most of the world, that doesn’t mean we can’t complain if it’s actively getting worse and harder to live.
Of course not. Yes, homelessness, rent, etc, those are real issues! And likely to get worse. For sure. And worth working on solutions.
Being mad because SkateboardCyberpunkFurry999 can’t pursue art as a passion and draw naked anime all day because ai slop is posted on dbzer0, seems like an inane thing to cry about. And I am seeing a lot of crying about it. lmao
I don’t disagree, tech continually makes work more efficient thus eliminating jobs, that’s a natural trend that won’t stop anytime soon. Sometimes the rollout can have avoidable harmful impacts though. Eli Whitney, inventor of the cotton gin, said it was maybe a mistake because with the increased efficiency of cotton harvesting it actually increased slave-labor and the profit for slavers before slavery was abolished.
The solution to the issues arising from it is not banning new tech, but there are only so many things we can do right now to limit the ecological impact, one thing is limiting use of this tech until it can be done with less energy usage. It also right now primarily benefits state-aligned tech companies like OpenAI. I’m not opposed to the development of technology in general.
Sometimes the rollout can have avoidable harmful impacts though
I would say most times it’s harmful in the beginning. But it happens and continue to happens. My rant is mostly about Lemmy’s who are saying, “Ohhhh woe!!! Think of the artists!!! Oh Nooooooooo! My last Pokemon card looked like it has some AI on it! REEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!”
I’m saying we should think of the millions of people who barely survive every fucking day because of inequality and classism. Not just some fucking artist who can’t illustrate their fav DnD wizards for a living!
I’m saying we should think of the millions of people who barely survive every fucking day because of inequality and classism.
Yeah, opponents of AI do, it’s making that worse for everyone. Plenty of people can barely make ends meet and supplement that income with writing and art gigs. People that can afford better AI services for applying for jobs and writing resumes have an advantage. Companies that can afford the best AI will have an advantage over lower wealth companies. It’s inevitable but we can at least try not to prop up the services that are furthering this.
Yeah, opponents of AI do, it’s making that worse for everyone.
But that’s any tech advancement. Friend, I was a professional artist for a living for 35 years. I’m not gonna cry about someones writing and art gig disappearing. They are no more special than anyone who has to work at a job they aren’t passionate about.
You AREN’T going to change anything. Brah, the vast majority of the population doesn’t even care.
Do you think that Jeremiah Boondock, working at a gas station in Missouri, while doing tile jobs on the weekends, trying to make sure he can pay rent, cares if his box of macaroni and cheese has AI picture on the cover!?
Do you think he gives a fuck that you suspect some pokemon art wasn’t drawn by hand?
Not only doesn’t he care, he’s not even aware of it.
Working a job you love?! The fuck? Most people have no idea what that is even like. It’s not an option for the majority of the world. Never has been.
I’m not saying any of that is good. But crying about ai art is the most blatant variation I’ve seen of the saying, “first world problems.”
Oh my God! LemmyFurryCyberpunkEatMyAssForPopcorn can’t draw some anime for a living like he has wanted to since he was 10 years old!! What. The. Fuck.
Yeah, ok, sucks. But you boycotting on Lemmy isn’t even going to make an echo of an impression. You can push your downvote button as hard as you can, stop buying the DnD guides that you suspect used AI for the Elf in the background.
No one will care. Nothing is going to happen. In fact, you’ll stop the boycotting because there is AI so good you don’t even know it’s ai. You can only tell ai when it’s bad. Good ai isn’t noticed. Brah, your video game ad already used AI and you didn’t know.
Friend, things are gonna get way worse, before they get better. So what I’m doing is just preparing for it. You cry, I’ll prepare and adapt.
But yeah, you be sure to hit that downvote arrow as hard as you can whenever you see something AI on Lemmy. That’ll show 'em! Right?!
It’s pretty funny sometimes though
I accidentally clicked on an AI video of Hank Hill rapping with all the characters from King of the hill and it was fucking hilarious and the song actually kind of slapped in a “bad music good” kind of way.
Do you have a link to that?
Holy fucking molly.
So do your opinions.
Well it looks like a majority here agree with my fuckin sucky opinion so that’s cool at least
This ain’t a popularity contest, you neckbeard redditor.
Lol you’re the one instigating, you could have said nothing
He spoke his mind, which is allowed as far as I’m aware.
Well yeah but it’s funny to call me a neckbeard redditor when they’re being an asshole for no reason
Removed by mod
As a genAI hater, I appreciate this. I already block the dedicated communities as I see them in /all. This is helpful to filter out more of the outliers if posters cooperate and actually use the tag. (I think alot of genAI zealots get off on trying to see if people will notice their posts are AI.)
genAi isn’t the problem, the zealots and fraudsters using it like that is the problem.
I was wondering why everyone just didn’t block the communities. Maybe their Lemmy clients do not have the option. I use Eternity and it works for me.
Most AI image generators that generate images add EXIF metadata indicating that the image is AI-generated. This helps people who want to identify AI-generated images readily.
In the case of ComfyUI, it even includes the entire workflow — like, another ComfyUI user can just grab the image, drop it onto their ComfyUI Web UI and they’ll be right where the generating user was.
Unfortunately, EXIF metadata can contain location information — some cameras and such add it — and this metadata led to people posting images at places like Reddit being doxxed after they didn’t realize that they were posting their GPS location and maybe real name, stuff that some cameras attach. As a result, a number of image-hosting places simply strip all metadata, to prevent users from from accidentally leaking this information.
Pict-rs, the software package that Lemmy hosts run to permit image uploads, does this. Unfortunately, it means that those “this is an AI-generated image” tags get stripped off.
So, for example, on my system, with ComfyUI, using ImageMagick:
$ identify -verbose output/ComfyUI_00312_.png“Properties:prompt” has a JSON encoding of the workflow.
Sample images generated by various AI image generators are readily-available on civitai.com.
For this generator that generated this image on civitai, it looks like the parameter is “Properties:parameters”.
I believe that there are a small number of such tags today.
It would be technically possible to just not have pict-rs strip that particular tag (or tags, if there are multiple that a given generator adds?) off, have a list of “AI-generated tags”, then have Lemmy add some visual indicator that an image is AI-generated. I’d suggest that this is probably a better longer-term route to indicate that an image is AI-generated than manually-tagging post titles, for a couple of reasons:
-
Spiders that index images on the Web will know that the image is AI-generated and can flag that for users and let them use that as a filtering criteria (e.g. Kagi Images permits for this). They aren’t going to understand tags in post titles, but the metadata tags are somewhat universal.
-
Doesn’t require manual effort if an image can have some indicator or flair or whatever put on it automatically. And I guarantee that some users are going to get this wrong just by accident, because different instances have different rules. Easier to change how a computer works than to change human behavior across-the-board.
-
Works on all instances.
-
The information remains attached to the image even if downloaded.
-
Works for images that aren’t just the subject of single-image posts and don’t have an associated title.
-
Speaking purely for myself, I kind of like the open-source, collaborative aspect of sharing the workflows or prompts, since it helps other users see how an image was created and learn from it; it’s something that I’m glad to see the generators include, and I’m kind of sad that we strip it off on the Threadiverse.
I really appreciate this comment because I didn’t know about EXIF metadata for AI-generated images and I think you raise interesting points about long term management of our informational ecosystems
exif is stripped when uploading to lemmy, I believe
-
I like gen ai and I think this rule is a nice gesture towards the other side. It’s a good practice to cite your sources when you’re online anyhow.
I think this is a good addition. We shouldn’t alienate other like-minded people because of slight disagreements in my mind “minor shit” like this, and this seems like the least that can be done.
Also, I believe this post should be tagged with [GenAi] because of the attached image? 😅
Well, the tag is very much in the title yes ;)
Re-reading it yeah it’s in the middle, I’m just conditioned to think the format
[TAG]:TitlehehYe that’s how most posts should look, but in my case I didn’t want to add it twice
This is a hopefully a happy middle group that stops these stupid fights and makes people focus on bigger things.
I was wondering if you guys would catch the latest shitstorm on this. Definitely a necessary precaution. Its a good idea, and I hope it will be enough.
Its getting to the point where people are blanket terming us as unhinged and blocking the whole instance because debates are getting heated. :(
I got called an alt of db0 because I explained the instance’s stance on Ai.
I also got called an alt of db0 because I just said “We have our own rules here, you don’t have to interact or make an account here.”
It’s going to take a while to do that now. People are all riled up right now and really should cool off a bit. I know what you mean, though, because this instance’s stance on AI is basically my stance on it.
There are great applications for it, but the government and big corp are pushing it into a disgusting direction, as they do with everything they get their hands on that could give them power or money.
The anti-ai people are sending death threats and transphobic remarks to mods.
They really need to step back and reassess their lives.
Its getting heated on both sides from what I’ve seen floating around. I have to stand more with db0, because the other side just seems to be openly marketing hate-mongering. Which of course is going to bait a rise out of some here. We haven’t been going around slandering people who hate AI, but I’ve seen people going around openly slandering this instance for liking it. That’s what happens when you create a community solely based on the hate of a subject. Its just a breeding ground for negative energy.
I’ve been on both sides. I’m not really cool with AI stealing art and prose to add onto their repertoire, but I have self-hosted LLMs and enjoy using them locally. There’s a place for AI, and unfortunately big corp is pushing an agenda that places AI in a horrible light, so its no wonder people hate it. That doesn’t mean that they should create a hate-based community, but hey, that’s a part of real freedom.
On the other side of this coin, we have people here who stoke the flames by pre-banning people from communities they moderate in wild displays of power abuse, or joining in on fuck_ai to openly speak out in a community where they’re obviously not wanted and in general just taking a stick to the beehive. I’ve seen plenty on this side that disregard the rules and beliefs of anarchy, instigate arguments, and flout the premise of one of the ideas that db0 stands against- abuse of power.
Like I said, I can’t blame some of them. Its hard to ignore some of the obvious slander that db0 gets sometimes, but it doesn’t mean we should openly validate them by getting hot around the collar about it. We shouldn’t take the high road, either. Pretentious high-horsing is just as bad as openly getting angry. Let AI-haters openly bash AI and try to understand that there is a vindicated reason for it. Its not us or even AI itself, its how AI is being marketed and used by big corp. We need to push that we don’t believe in that, the same as they don’t, without swinging bats at the first hater we come across.
The best thing db0 can do right now is be respectful. I get it, we’re not exactly receiving that same respect sometimes, but stooping down to low levels of disrespect just based on the venom that spits out of an individual’s mouth is just not the answer. Whereas I don’t think this will get as bad as .ml or hexbear levels of hatred, I really don’t want us to be the next in that spotlight.
Death threats and transphobia are just the cries of the few disgusting extremists. I agree that they need to stop immediately. I tend to dislike anything extremist. Their respective instances should be taking action against those individuals. If they don’t, I have no doubts that Lemmy will stand against them as a whole. Transphobia in general isn’t and shouldn’t be tolerated anywhere, and usually isn’t tolerated here at all.
In the case of those individuals, I just see children throwing a tantrum and trying anything to scare or upset mods. That’s when slurs and scare tactics pop their ugly heads out of the grass, and they should be ashamed for just thinking those things, let alone acting on them. But that’s not instance vs. instance. That’s a handful of people in an instance being angry at a handful of people from another instance. There should be no reason to start a war of many based on the battle of a few.
So I don’t disagree with you, but the context makes all the difference in the world. Its a very complicated and complex situation.
tl;dr: This whole thing sucks, but at least we’re taking steps on our side to solve it.
FWIW, I approve/agree with this rule.
Kudos.
That’s it, that’s the comment
Imagine getting angry at something this trivial.
I think it’s more “imagine getting mad at people using it at all” because the social effects aren’t trivial at all.
The social effects of me generating an image are non-existent.
The social effects of capitalism are all reaching and exist independently of LLMs.
I mean…
I can imagine how artists struggling to make ends meet might be angry that work they’d spent years learning and honing their skills to produce was and is being crawled by tools made by a bunch of silver-spoon-chomping techbros who are marketing their products to businesses who employ artists as a way to employ less artists, and pay peanuts to those they do hire to wrangle prompts and fix AI mistakes instead of actually getting to make art.
And I can imagine how frustrating it is to see people minimize that struggle when it often benefits oligarchs and C-suite ghouls.
This isn’t exactly a capitalist tech-bro instance. So while I agree with there being a problem here, the problem is less genai and more about capitalism IMHO.
Which is why it can seem a bit silly to me to go after this instance of all things when it comes to genai.
That said, as always, I think db0’s soft rule is a really great good faith effort to be accommodating to others, while staying true to the core of what the instance is about.
So I hope you’ll see that part of things and tone it down in kind.
Sorry, what exactly do I need to tone down?
Pretty sure this is the first time I’ve ever commented on the issue here or elsewhere on Lemmy.
I see anti-AI sentiment all over the fediverse, but nothing in the original post that would indicate that these users are exclusively targeting db0 communities, just that the admins here have chosen to address it; and I agree it’s a good way to handle the situation.
I think there are good and valuable use cases for AI, including generative AI.
But I also think a lot of the costs are hidden because the tools are free and easy to access, and because those coats often pretty abstract and wide-ranging so as to be difficult to observe, quantify, and attribute to an emerging technology. So I think there are a lot of really valid reasons to question casual use of those tools because they do not exist outside of capitalism.
The point of my earlier post wasn’t meant to be that all use of AI is bad or that somebody using it to make a meme or art of their big-titty anime waifu is directly putting artists out of work, but I also don’t think that those things are entirely separable, either.
And since I was replying to a user whose comment made a blanket claim implying that casual use of generative AI is trivial, well… no, I don’t think it is.
I’ve done all sorts of art in my life. Sometimes as a job. And it’s personally pretty disheartening to see comments like “it just looks like AI, human-made art doesn’t look like that” because yes, it sometimes does, even if the poster has never seen human-made art like that.
But I’ve also spent the last few years watching dozens of friends and former coworkers lose their careers and their livelihoods en masse for no reason other than naked greed.
I think that making art more accessible through AI can be a really cool and pretty liberating thing for a lot of people, but as it’s being employed by the big corporate players, it does have big serious negative externalities for working artists and for cultural products writ large, and I think that’s worth bringing up.
Sorry, what exactly do I need to tone down?
More of a general commentary for the anti-AI folks.
but nothing in the original post that would indicate that these users are exclusively targeting db0 communities
There have been pretty frequent cases of it lately, as db0 is pro ai.
So I think there are a lot of really valid reasons to question casual use of those tools because they do not exist outside of capitalism.
They do, there are many openly created and developed options which can be entirely locally run.
This is an anarchist instance.
This is not the same thing as anarcho-capitalist, which I personally think is nonsensical to include ‘anarch’ at all in because its just extremist capitalism with corporations rather than states. Its not remotely anarchist, but that’s a digression.
This instance is specifically anti-capitalism. And while I understand you are saying you are not running around being anti-AI, the latter 75% of the comment I’m replying to speaks to a capitalism problem, not a genai problem.
There are many people complaining about genai that are just complaining about capitalism. They might be using genai as the context, but the complaint is about capitalism. Just like the majority of your comment.
So the people who are going on db0 communities, complaining about genai (with capitalism as the reason why), well they really aren’t paying attention to what the instance is.
I know this is an anarchist instance. It’s part of the reason I assumed that anti-capitalism would be a given and I didn’t need to bang the drum about it before stating my arguments. I am anti-capitalist.
It seems like your faith is much higher than mine that people are vetting the AI tools they use, or that they exclusively use their own works as training material.
From what I can tell, our stable diffusion art communities make no distinction between training sets, nor do they require that shared images be trained on public-domain or user-owned data only. Given that, I don’t think it’s completely unreasonable that people are equating stable diffusion users with users generating their content on the big models that were indiscriminately fed the entire internet. There’s no way to easily tell.
And outside of capitalism and industry, there are interesting philosophical discussions that need to be had around generative AI that I don’t see enough. Here are a few of the topics I think need to be examined more, both by human society at large, and by AI-art communities especially:
-
What does “good artists borrow, great artists steal” mean when the artist in question is modulating their output by inhuman means - parsing millions of images in ways that are physical impossibility? I think that’s worth interrogating.
-
What say do living artists get in who uses their work in training sets, and how should that be respected? Is ignorance of publicly-stated wishes an acceptable excuse? How should this be moderated?
-
How do we assign value (cultural, economic, personal, sentimental, or any other) to creative works? I think arguably that both human-created and generative AI art are the product of thousands of years of human creative output, but they’re vastly different in terms of the skill, types of knowledge, and time required to create one piece.
And it worries me that a lot of people seem pretty inclined to dismiss criticism of AI use as frivolous or reactionary, or couch it as a base refusal to adapt or learn new technologies. Especially when the people driving policy around the largest implementations of that technology are the ones who are the least principled in its deployment.
I know that this is a small community. I know that the proportion of people here who use custom stable diffusion models is almost definitely much higher than many other forums on the internet.
But I worry that if we don’t have this kind of discussion here, where people are (maybe, optimistically/flatteringly) more judicious in their use of AI than elsewhere - if we don’t have clear, principled guidelines, then the prevailing attitudes are ultimately going to wind up being those of Microsoft, Google, OpenAI, or fucking Grok.
For now though, unless I know that someone is using models trained on their own work, or at least public-domain works, I feel like I’m crossing a picket line, and I don’t like that.
It seems like your faith is much higher than mine that people are vetting the AI tools they use, or that they exclusively use their own works as training material.
Here vs other instances? Absolutely, yes, more would be. That said, that isn’t what I said - I said they exist, and that people here would predominantly be running locally. Personally I train my own models, but I don’t presume everyone else is. That doesn’t change the core of the issue in your comments - the complaints are about capitalism, genai is just the context for that.
From what I can tell, our stable diffusion art communities make no distinction between training sets, nor do they require that shared images be trained on public-domain or user-owned data only. Given that, I don’t think it’s completely unreasonable that people are equating stable diffusion users with users generating their content on the big models that were indiscriminately fed the entire internet. There’s no way to easily tell.
There mostly aren’t ways to tell, so there would be no requirement of that. Add to that this being an instance that would support taking the models from corporations and not using their systems to run them and that being taking away from corporations, yeah, I’d bet some do.
That doesn’t really change capitalism being the root of the problem though, does it?
Here are a few of the topics I think need to be examined more, both by human society at large, and by AI-art communities especially:
- What does “good artists borrow, great artists steal” mean when the artist in question is modulating their output by inhuman means - parsing millions of images in ways that are physical impossibility? I think that’s worth interrogating.
- What say do living artists get in who uses their work in training sets, and how should that be respected? Is ignorance of publicly-stated wishes an acceptable excuse? How should this be moderated?
- How do we assign value (cultural, economic, personal, sentimental, or any other) to creative works? I think arguably that both human-created and generative AI art are the product of thousands of years of human creative output, but they’re vastly different in terms of the skill, types of knowledge, and time required to create one piece.
I think these are fantastic questions! I also wouldn’t call them anti-ai, which is the part I was calling out. The anti-ai folks think that think any and all use of these models is somehow wrong, and then answer with an issue that at its root is just “capitalism is the problem” is what I was calling out.
And it worries me that a lot of people seem pretty inclined to dismiss criticism of AI use as frivolous or reactionary, or couch it as a base refusal to adapt or learn new technologies. Especially when the people driving policy around the largest implementations of that technology are the ones who are the least principled in its deployment.
I don’t believe I said anything like that, what I did was say that bringing up something that boils down to “capitalism” doesn’t make sense as a reason to bring up on this instance, and its what many anti-ai folks do. I think the questions you had above are exactly the type that should be welcomed and explored, but if someone is coming to a community hosted here to just complain about genai and downvote things because they don’t like that - well, thats equally as uninformed and unhelpful.
But I worry that if we don’t have this kind of discussion here, where people are (maybe, optimistically/flatteringly) more judicious in their use of AI than elsewhere - if we don’t have clear, principled guidelines, then the prevailing attitudes are ultimately going to wind up being those of Microsoft, Google, OpenAI, or fucking Grok.
I think discussions are great!
I just think people immediately spewing off “Ugh AI” or “slop” or whatever is not productive and has no place on this instance.
For now though, unless I know that someone is using models trained on their own work, or at least public-domain works, I feel like I’m crossing a picket line, and I don’t like that.
And you absolutely can feel that way, 100%.
What would be inappropriate would be the above comments because of a complete lack of being informed that some people do train their own models, do use public domain works, etc, or complain about the non-public domain works for a reason that boils down to a persistent problem - capitalism - and just saying its genai that is the problem, not the capitalistic nonsense behind those large corporations abusing everyone’s work and then selling it.
-
i understand what youre saying, no ethical consumption etc etc, but gen ai to me is akin to buying from Amazon, or eating meat and dairy products. like yeah, one person doing it isnt the issue, and its normalised and easy, and todays hypercapitalism is the root issue of why these things are bad so its not really your fault.
if you cant/ wont take these things into account with your stated moral attitudes (anti capital/ corporate, pro environmental, etc) then why say you are an anarchist?
idk if this makes sense, and im not trying to take away your lefty badge or whatever, but shouldnt we try to not use the tools of the ownership class? shouldnt we try to uplift our fellow workers instead of freely using tools we know steal their labour?
You seem to believe that all of the genai platforms are Gemini, copilot, etc.
This is decidedly untrue.
There are many models built entirely on public domain works, not made by or for the benefit of any corporation or business entity.
I have personally built models (not llm, thats not my use case) for identifying certain movement patterns in animals. I have made others to identify problems in audio.
The sampled data is all mine. There is no company backing it, no corporate overlord.
Capitalism is not involved.
In what way is it a “tool of the ownership class” for me to use my own models for my own use?
In the same vein, in what way are generative ai models, developed on readily available, public domain materials, provided equally to all possible both as the model (as well as available processing for free as you’ll find here) a “tool of the ownership class”?
I’m not trying to be dismissive here, but what it sounds like to me is that you have limited knowledge of these solutions, and are suggesting all of them are owned by MS/Google/Meta/OpenAI/etc, and that isn’t remotely accurate.
Thats like saying I shouldn’t use a wrench I made in my metal shop at home, because Snap-On makes wrenches, so wrenches are a tool of the ownership class.
wrench analogy is very good, ai can be used as a tool.
i would like to see the numbers of people using ‘off the rack’ vs home grown on this site. maybe that would help me change my mind further :)
But I’ve also spent the last few years watching dozens of friends and former coworkers lose their careers and their livelihoods en masse for no reason other than naked greed.
But that’s not going to change. At all. No amount of boycotting or yelling about it on Lemmy is going to change it. Guess what, before artists, factory workers got taken over by new tech. Textile workers got taken over by new tech. Candle lighters got taken over by new tech. Horse and buggy makers got taken over by new tech.
Artists aren’t any more special than any other industry. I was a professional artist for 35 years. Worked in marketing depts almost my entire career.
Adapt or die. But being upset about it doesn’t change the tide. I jumped right in and I love AI art. Even tho it took over my industry. :)
What do people on Lemmy think their outrage is gonna do? It’s already here. It’s already in the vid games you all play. It’s already in the DnD manuals you all read.
The Luddites here amaze me. If you feel so “sad” for those people, well then be sure to buy some of their original artwork. Nothing is making them stop. They just will have to do something else for a living. MOST people don’t love what they do for a living. Artists are some precious group that needs to be protected. They can still do their craft.
Fair, but this happens in EVERY profession. Happened with people who sewed clothes, weavers, photographers (once a camera was on every single phone), now coders, etc. Also very few artists made money anyway. People who like to do art for personal and fun reason, still can.
Source: I used to be a professional artist/graphic artist for a living. I was able to do it for 35 years before I retired last year. It was always a grind, and very few could make it. Even though I was good enough for it to be my only paycheck for most of my career, I still love AI artwork. :)
World changes. People crying about it and “boycotting” lemmy communities because they don’t like it won’t change anything at all. Not even a little bit.
AI isn’t going anywhere, regardless of how mad people on Lemmy are about it. Not only that, but a lot of nerdy stuff they do now like vid games, DnD, etc, already incorporate AI and will continue to do so. I still have contacts in the industry, I know what the marketing departments are doing. Lemmy won’t even know what is AI and what isn’t.
There are still people here who say “Oh just look at the hands!” Friends, there are lots of ai models that have figured that out.
Marketing teams aren’t using ai that looks ai. Most food photos you see are ai. Most graphics you are seeing on vid game covers and ads are ai. Funiture ads are ai. You are already being duped because you think you “know AI” when you see it. Actually, no you don’t. You know BAD ai when you see it. Good ai is something that you don’t even realize is ai. And it’s already everywhere. lmao
There are still people here who say “Oh just look at the hands!”
I agree with you and I want to add that hands are very difficult even for artists, probably more than the whole body anatomy, thus hands studies are pretty popular with the beginners to nail natural angles, proportions etc. GenAI companies probably did just that - fed their models thousands of hands pictures - so it’d ‘learn’ how to draw (copy) them. I find this kinda funny.
I see your point and agree. It is a shit situation for artists, at least for 90% of them without a distinct art style. Same goes for writers. Same goes for accountants (when the first accounting software was released). Same for …. Anything that has been or will be replaced by technology.
Additionally, art is not just about the visual output. Art is multi-layered. And I am talking about real art, not just drawings. And those things cannot be replaced by a machine (yet).
at least for 90% of them without a distinct art style. Same goes for writers.
Studio Ghlibli has a unique style, and they still got copied by AI.
With a bit of experience, I can also paint Mona Lisa. But I doubt that someone will credit me for this or buy anything off me.
I think of that every single time someone goes off on me on Lemmy. Which is every day! Lemmy def seems to attract people with certain kind of personality trait that means they get obsessed and upset over the tinest things and can’t understand context.
This is what they are gonna call cyborgs born in the year 2100
![New Soft Rule: Tagging posts as [GenAI] when they contain Generative AI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/c81b8a67-68a5-468e-ad45-7b846e838270.webp){kind=link}
