Debian user here. All people have a doorkey. Some people have an alarm system as well. Infosec is about ’ what do you have and what do you know '. So in principle TPM is a defencible argument. You should absolutely bail from MS products for different reasons. Like privacy. Your PC isn’t yours anymore. Your NPU will reduce THEIR costs. Etc.
Don’t enter Linux thinking its a drop in replacement. Go slow and do ‘ships in the night’. Move data over to the new ship. Start embracing OSS on windows, it’ll be familiar when you finally bail. G luck.
TPM is the wedge to put a cryptoprocessor in your computer so program can finally operate under the tyrannical scrutiny of users and the pirates using ghidra !
I’m grateful to Microsoft for Windows 11 providing me a bunch of free machines to stick in my basement and put Linux on.
The writer clearly understands that something isn’t adding up with Microsoft’s claims about TPM, but nowhere do they address the accusations that Microsoft plans to use it as DRM (and potentially spying).
Similarly, only supporting certain CPU’s is suspect as hell. Between all this and Recall, it really feels like the driving design focus behind Windows 11 was to build the best spying machine they could.
what a bizare take to suggest hoping for ReactOS to mature before using Linux as daily driver. A lot of the current reactOS app compatibility depends on WINE implementation anyway.
ReactOS is a very fun project, but anyone expecting it to be a real useable OS is absolutely mad. It’s been going for almost 30 years, and they’re almost at the point of binary compatibility with Windows Server 2003…
Last I checked it didnt play very nicely in real hardware, and required running it in a VM
It may be a bold of me to say, but I hold the controversial opinion that I don’t really give a shit which computer OS you use. If you can use a mouse and keyboard to navigate a desktop environment then 🤙 you are ahead of the curve at this point.
I had a Windows 10 laptop that has a CPU not supported by Windows 11. It’s not e-waste, though. It just runs Ubuntu now.
Fucking Christ, you have choices people. If windows won’t meet your needs anymore, USE SOMETHING ELSE! Why do these people pretend there are no alternatives to windows?!
Think about all the people with computers that don’t know about Linux.
Why do these people pretend there are no alternatives to windows?!
They’d have to admit they were wrong.
Most people are incapable of doing this unless they literally have no choice.
There are no alternatives to Windows. You will join us. Embrace ☀️. Extend 🌈.Ȩ̷͙͙̺̰̦͊̏͜x̷̱̹̃t̶̡͉̍̋̌̿͗̈́͘í̴̡̼̱̫͚̺͙̉ň̶̛̮͠ģ̴̛̹̮͎̏̓u̷̢̢̜͊̆̈̉͐̑i̸̛̪͔̤̰͚̾͌̈̍͜ͅs̶̳̜͎͓͚̣̼̖͌̇̈́͊̌͋h̷͉̹̄͐̋̐͛🌚.
Where’s Microsoft’s Chief Sustainability Officer on this one? Too busy looking the other way on Copilot’s massive energy usage?
Switch to Linux, today. It’s always been the better option, but for the last decade it’s been the easier option as well. Installing Linux is a walk in the park whereas windows is a Hilarious clown show from hell with no end.
That reminds me that now in the office we’re dealing with windows machines where the network card just stops working, drivers are suddenly gone. Don’t ask, it’s windows, it’s Microsoft abd this is just considered normal. If a Linux machine has a bug it’s “oh my god Linux sucks sooo hard, it’s impossible to get it to work!” but this Microsoft bullshit just gets handwaved away with “well computers are complicated, let’s just reinstall this”
Yes, there is still a limited set of specialty hardware that may not have drivers available for Linux, but the vast majority of people can easily run Linux and have a much MUCH better experience than windows, and that is ignoring the spyware, the adware, the ads, the plain security nightmare of having a windows machine…
Switch to Linux, it’s easy, it’s beautiful, it’s fun. Come to Linux, come to the dark side, we have cookies
Installing Linux is a walk in the park whereas windows is a Hilarious clown show from hell with no end.
As a server maybe. Switching everything on my desktop to Linux has been a constant fight against all kinds of problems and there’s several things I haven’t been able to get working at all. Microsoft’s constant enshittification is closing the gap and it’s currently a tossup between which one I’m going to land on but that’s not Linux improving so much as Windows getting worse.
It’s very hardware dependent with a few problem’s like Nvidia. For Best results go established brands that support Linux like thinkpads.
That advice doesn’t help much when I already have all the hardware. The whole point is not having to buy new shit.
I want giving advice, I was describing the situation. 🤷
Exactly, I have a bunch of weird issues when running Linux on my Lenovo Legion 5 Pro with an RTX3060. So unfortunately I w9nt be switching until the situation improves.
It’s not even about gaming either, virtually all animations are like 2fps, no matter the drivers or power management. I wasted days on this with some guys from the Lenovo Legion Linux discord server, and some with exactly the same laptop don’t have the same issue, but windows runs fine.
It’s a real shame that, maybe on the next laptop!
Is your model covered by a NixOS module?
https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/tree/master/lenovo/legion
Could give one of these a twirl and see if it fixes the issues you’ve been seeing.
Thanks for the lead, but I’m afraid I don’t know what to do with these modules. Do they only work with NixOS?
Seriously. If you’re used to fiddling with Windows and especially if you have installed Windows recently, go try something like Linux Mint. Just the install process will blow your mind. And then wait until you get a system update and it doesn’t affect what you’re doing!
And you can say no if you want to!
Yeah I guess I left that part out! It’s funny because like so many things in Linux, you have all the power but you often don’t need to use it because the same problems just aren’t there.
You get to decide when to apply the updates, but they are so quick and unobtrusive that I choose to apply them immediately!
No cookies!
Punch and pie!
That reminds me that now in the office we’re dealing with windows machines where the network card just stops working, drivers are suddenly gone. Don’t ask, it’s windows, it’s Microsoft abd this is just considered normal. If a Linux machine has a bug it’s “oh my god Linux sucks sooo hard, it’s impossible to get it to work!” but this Microsoft bullshit just gets handwaved away with “well computers are complicated, let’s just reinstall this”
Ah, yes, that. I switched in 2011 and the first impressions were about how flawless everything is compared to Windows.
the plain security nightmare of having a windows machine…
Eh, about that - Linux really isn’t immune to that. Just right now Windows is still by far the more profitable target.
Linux security is not perfect, nothing is. But compared to windows security? Come on, seriously? Is .exe still the extension that’ll automatically execute a program?
I’m not sure this is anywhere near what a security comparison would look like.
And the fact that the traditional Unix security model is being augmented with ACLs and selinux and what not hints, that it’s not sufficient. And what these things are being used for is, well, similar to Windows security model.
It’s better now but twenty years ago some Linux distros were so insecure out of the box that you could be fully owned if you logged into the wrong network.
Even still, I don’t see most distros leverage the security capabilities that running Linux enables. Linux runs the server side of the internet, being a niche os isn’t the security silver bullet it once was.
Pretty sure this guy didn’t use Linux twenty years ago. Outside of very basic computing, Linux wasn’t very useful.
I’ve been running Linux exclusively since 2001 or so. It was rough around the edges back then, but it was useful enough for what I needed.
You had to choose a good distro on that note; redhat, mandrake, etc broke on me so many times, and I was only able to fully switch after finding slackware, which was rock solid.
Pretty sure this guy built a 5 user machine with 5 monitors, keyboards, audio, all on a single 2gig Celeron machine. Built the software for all of it in 3 months. That is not 1 user on a desktop but 5 at the same time. 1 user was even back then better, bect I remember all the Regex.exe posts that is sooooo much easier than typing a command somewhere
That was 17 years ago.
But what if we already use Linux? Can we still have some cookies? Or is this new users only?
You can have them, just click accept all on the cookie pop up.
Quick glance on my installed programs, and I count 7 apps I heavily use in windows 11 with no linux version, nor a clear equivalent that could replace them without extensive hacks that may or may not work and be a total waste of my time.
Also a funny thing: I installed Debian with KDE and then GNOME last year on another PC, and guess what? KDE & GNOME came bloated with a bunch of apps, games, office suite, code editor and other shit.
I thought the whole shtick of Linux/FOSS was that it didn’t make any default choices for you. That’s what I always read here when people cry about windows bloat.
The same cleanup & customization did for windows 11 I had to do to Debian KDE and then GNOME.
Point is: it’s not that easy and being and insufferable jerk about it its not gonna solve it. Let people use what they want.
If a distribution didn’t come with any default software, it would be unusable out of the box by the average user. If you want that, choose something like Arch or Gentoo or LFS.
The point of FOSS is freedom and choice. You can choose a distribution that aligns with your needs, and once it’s running, you can e.g. replace Firefox with Chrome or use Nautilus instead of Thunar. Try uninstalling IE/Edge or Explorer on Windows for a direct comparison.
The whole schtick is you have actual ownership and control of your software. You literally just have a Windows license and in that license you have no power or control over your OS. Microsoft is definitely spying on you at this point, no question about that anymore.
I am sensing some serious anti-linux projections. If you don’t like it, don’t use it. If you don’t like people talking about it, don’t use Lemmy and go to Reddit where there are tons of Windows bros who dunk on Linux all day.
Point is: Your full of it and you probably want to ruin Lemmy like Reddit got ruined so you can feel comfortable in your chosen OS. Follow the granny rule, if you don’t have something positive to say just shut the fuck up.
If you don’t like people talking about it, don’t use Lemmy and go to Reddit where there are tons of Windows bros who dunk on Linux all day.
Nice gatekeeping… people like you are why these platforms are never taking off.
My home server runs debian, my main PC runs windows 11, and I have an iPhone and it all works very well. I don’t like circlejerks, they’re stupid, specially when they’re loudly incorrect.
Lemmy has a massive circlejerk problem to the point that you can’t even mention using proprietary stuff because you get screamed at by keyboard warriors.
I think you’re confusing Lemmy’s alignment to freedom and the common good with a circle jerk. Most of us are here because we don’t want to be bound by the limits of centralized, proprietary social networks, how can you be surprised that the people here try to make the same choice in other aspects of their lives?
Quick glance on my installed programs, and I count 7 apps I heavily use in windows 11 with no linux version, nor a clear equivalent that could replace them without extensive hacks that may or may not work and be a total waste of my time.
if you tell us the names, maybe someone can help
Also a funny thing: I installed Debian with KDE and then GNOME last year on another PC, and guess what? KDE & GNOME came bloated with a bunch of apps, games, office suite, code editor and other shit.
that’s the decision of the distribution, not KDE/Gnome. often it is configurable in the installer, even in debian to some level.
The same cleanup & customization did for windows 11 I had to do to Debian KDE and then GNOME.
to be fair if uninstalling unneeded programs is the only thing you do on 11, you’re leaving in lots of things.
Let people use what they want.
I agree that insufferable jerks are insufferable jerks, but I don’t think most people want to use windows 11, but that’s what they can use, for one reason or another, some of which have a solution, some of which not yet. if anything, I would bet money most would rather just stay on 10.
consider linux instead of throwing functional shit away
I’ve converted a ton of my older family to Linux, it does everything they need as far as web browsing and some basic office applications, and it offers a polished enough UI these days that most barely tell it apart from windows, some even prefer the UI more. Even 2/3 of our home systems have gone full Linux now too (no more dual booting) and handle all my own gaming, audio and programming needs. I really hope this message keeps getting out there and we can cut back on ewaste and forced obselence.
also that most of us don’t actually need microsoft!
I have a custom built PC running on Windows 10, which has no TPM and therefore cannot update to Win11. I might consider Linux as an alternative on some regular laptop, but I’m afraid that my games might no longer be running if I switch the OS from Windows to Linux.
try them out. the only real exceptions are some multiplayer games that are specifically blocked on linux. anti cheat itself is working, its up to the companies to let us use it.
a lot of games run faster, even through proton.
Proton has come a long way.
The only game I can’t play is fortnight, and that’s because Epic won’t enable the anti cheat to run on Linux, not because the game doesn’t work.
What is “Proton” in this context?
Adding to what the others were saying, proton has an unaffiliated website for reporting purposes, protondb.com. It tallies user reports of the games working or not. The data is associated mostly with steam libraries.
I don’t have a lot of games in my steam library, relatively speaking, barely over 100. But there are zero games that would not work on Linux for me:
In this context Platinum means it works out of the box, Gold means some users experienced minor issues (mostly older reports by nvidia users) that required some tinkering with launch options, such as setting an environment variable. Silver and Bronze mean gradually more tinkering required but still works. This excludes native apps (which do not use wine/proton) and borked apps (of which I own zero).
Note, that this is a translation layer, not emulation, and often games can have better performance under Linux thanks to the system not getting bogged down by the OS itself.
Also note, that 99% borked games are due to kernel level anticheat and DRM being implemented improperly by the game developer, which proton can’t handle. You can still make it work under Linux, but you’d actually require emulation for that, instead of proton.
Edit:
Another screenshot of the top50 played saturation to show you what to expect.
OK, thanks for the information, that sounds really interesting. I was playing Doom Eternal and Metro Exodus some time ago, but I made a bread and didn‘t pick it up anymore due to a lack of time. Many years ago I was also trying a bit of Linux on a Netbook (small notebook). By then it was really a different world than Windows.
However, I am not sure how easy that is to manage with getting the right Linux distribution, then Wine, then Proton and then getting all tricks and tweaks right… - I am not a tech expert, so leaving a system that works out of the box is a bit of a hurdle for me.
What would be the best Linux „Distro“ (I guess that‘s how it is called) to start with? I would prefer if I would not have to deal with command line stuff… ;-)
Luckily, Steam handles all of that for you.
People keep saying Bazzite now for distro. But as a relatively new linux user (since last summer) I’ve managed to make things work with Linux Mint, arch and Fedora no hassle.
Heroic launcher (GOG, Epic) or Steam will handle proton&wine for you. Just need to check a check-box in the game’s config on whether you want to run native or proton.
Which Distro would you recommend for a relative newcomer? My PC was once “high-end” but is already a bit older (2016/17?). Still quite powerful, I guess.
As another person mentioned Proton is Linux’s compatibility layer for Windows applications, from my understanding it installs necessary .NET frameworks and other dependencies into a fake C:\ drive an then utilizes that fake C:\ to trick the game into thinking it’s running Windows.
Every windows applications I put through Proton has not once failed to open. Now the claims that Anti-Cheat for games isn’t supported is purely false, most popular anti cheat’s do support Linux however, it’s entirely up to the publisher to tick the checkbox to allow Linux users to play.
Battle eye, Punk Buster, Easy Anti-Cheat all support Linux natively.
It’s an extension of WINE, a compatibility layer that allows Windows apps to run on Linux, with better support for games. It’s what the Steam Deck uses.
What games? Even games with EasyAntiCheat work in Linux nowadays, but it depends on the devs.
Almost every single modern game runs on Linux, i always thought it was an issue but in reality it just works out of the box most of the time.
For what it’s worth, I switched 2 years ago and have yet to run into a game I wanted to play and couldn’t. There are some glaring holes, mostly around “serious e-sports” games that have overly invasive anti-cheat (or devs that specifically choose to block linux) that won’t work. Riot and Epic both seem to have a hard on for blocking linux users, as an example.
But here’s the neat part. You can make the switch and see, and it costs you nothing. If you are in the minority that it just won’t work for and have to switch back to windows, you are in the exact same spot you are in now, with nothing lost but a bit of time.
Linux is fantastic for gaming. You’ll even see performance improvements. The only games that have problems are those that intentionally block linux, like Destiny 2, but they’re not worth playing.
The places you are likely to run into problems is with certain desktop apps. For example, the Affinity suite or software designed to support specific devices or peripherals. But if gaming is your focus, Linux is genuinely a better choice than Windows all around.
If it’s not “any game of a list of 200 and it must run without effort”, then most games can be made to work either with a certain version of Wine and winetricks settings, or with a certain version of Proton, and there are many things to consider trying.
I once couldn’t play X-Wing Alliance under FreeBSD because of joystick not being visible, so I went as far as patching Wine’s winmm (I think) to make it work, and carrying that patch around when upgrading Wine or installing someplace new. Glad to report that now one doesn’t need it.
That’s more than most things require, and some can’t be made work with just one simple patch, but the point is - a lot of games work.
And once you’ve made it work, no additional effort is needed. Just having, maybe, a script setting the right environment variables and launching the game.
A lot of games will just run.
Microsoft: BUT WE’RE THE MOST ECO CONSCIOUS COMPANY WE KNOW!!!
You can’t say they’re not. The even have a Chief Sustainability Officer! /s
OK I’m sold…they are officially the most eco efficient and conscious company in the WORLD and bill gates is not about to garrote me agent 47 sty-
DON’T TURN ON DISPLAYING SECONDS IN THE TASKBAR BECAUSE THAT’LL USE MORE ENERGY!
ROFL no. I once knew someone who got offered an upgrade from whatever to Windows 10, only for it to fail half way through because their CPU was some weird corner case that the OS thought it supported but when it was time to boot… didn’t.
Also if you want to talk e-waste, look no further than Chromebooks.
Windows 11 has problems, this is hardly one of them.
Chromebooks and Apple products hitting EoL for sure.
Chromebooks sound good in theory but fall short because kids are great at breaking them and there is a lack of repairability.
There is also chromeos being kinda ass
Idk about the lack of repairability, those things are really easy and cheap to fix in my experience. They are at least no less repairable than 95% of laptops on the market.
I couldn’t bear to make e-waste, so I repaired two c.~2012 era chromebooks earlier this year. The end result was equal parts rewarding experience and a complete was of my time xD. Those sandy bridge cpus are sloooow
You can argue all you want about TPM and its ‘security’. I ALWAYS thought that forcing users to use TPM 2+ hardware is planned obsolescence and nothing/no one will convince me otherwise.
The only thing affected users can and should do is to leave that PoS of an ‘operating system’.
It’s not PoS. At its core Windows NT is very cool, and the Windows subsystem for it is not terrible.
What’s PoS is that the only way you get it is with such a heap of garbage, that you can’t see the good parts behind it.
And even its developers seem to have forgotten those good parts, I wonder if they ever change anything there other than “closing” vulnerabilities with yet another condition in some long-long switch … case … statements.
I can’t wait for the surge in cheap PCs available to buy and install Linux on. Please, Microsoft, lock down Windows more.
The article focuses a lot on the security of the boot process, but there’s no reason the TPM can’t be used for DRM as well (as an example, https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5283799). It’s correct when it points out the locked down nature of consoles and phones.
We could conceivably be in for a future where Windows refuses to run code that’s not validated even after the OS boots. Or where it sees pirated software on the system and refuses to function in some manner until the software is removed/corrected to its liking.
There are so many possibilities here and all of them are bad.
- Forced online accounts so Microsoft always knows when/where you login
- Stored encryption keys so Microsoft could theoretically provide access to any computer the government requests
- Telemetry already reporting god only knows what metrics about what and how you use your software
- Forced AI that literally watches everything you do on your screen storing it in a known location making for a valuable target and also potentially/likely being used to create more telemetry and insights into your habits
- Eventual full control over your hardware by enforcing “trusted platform” restrictions
It’s so fucking brazen I’m gobsmacked. As an elder Millennial, I get it, I can already hear most of you tallying in your head if having to care about your OS is gonna be the final straw . This is no longer a nerdy request to please use Linux, this is a five alarm fire. Add to all this how much Microsoft is in bed with the US government and potential issues with all that on the horizon and I really, truly believe it’s time to switch, for your own good.
Please. Even if you’re not going to run out and install Linux tomorrow, you need to start mentally preparing yourself for the inevitability of the task. Get yourself accustomed to the idea and when you’re ready to dip your toes in, just know how many resources are out there for you.
And to the Linux community out there, there are going to be a lot of newcomers who don’t have the technical skills to undertake this and enjoy/appreciate this in the same way as you do. Be kind to them, the need for us to support each other has never been greater. Please.
I’ve been daily-driving Linux for over a decade at this point so you don’t need to convince me, and I’ll just spin up a Windows VM for things aren’t picky about baremetal OS installs, but also don’t play nice with WINE.
DRM is already the primary purpose of trusted compute if you read shareholder meeting transcripts; security is a marketing side effect.
Ya boy Richard Stallman agrees and has been saying this for years (although this article is more recentish), https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.en.html
“Treacherous computing” is a more appropriate name, because the plan is designed to make sure your computer will systematically disobey you. In fact, it is designed to stop your computer from functioning as a general-purpose computer. Every operation may require explicit permission.
As of 2022, the TPM2, a new “Trusted Platform Module”, really does support remote attestation and can support DRM. The threat I warned about in 2002 has become terrifyingly real.
Actual, honest to god reasons to upgrade to Windows 11 are already vague and questionable. Your average user probably doesn’t even see any particular reason and only perceives the nuisance of it. But it’s hard to fully close your iron fist around a platform when TPM enablement is so sparse in the consumer space. So what better way to do it than a mandatory OS upgrade with it as a system requirement and assure all (or a vast majority of) systems align at once?
Of course there are ways for stubborn users to skirt those requirements, but that misses the primary point of Trusted Computing. While the OS may baseline function to some degree, there’s no telling what functionality may be crippled by not being in a trusted state. EDIT: For example, this could easily tie into games with anti-cheat such that they will refuse to run on Windows 11 unless TPM is enabled.
I don’t know the future any better than anyone else, I’m just trying to read the winds at the moment. I suspect they may not try to pull the entire trap closed all at once and that Windows 11 may continue to more or less function as we’ve seen past iterations. But the pieces will be in place by then and it’s only a matter of time before some greedy exec gives the word …
I suspect they may not try to pull the entire trap closed all at once and that Windows 11 may continue to more or less function as we’ve seen past iterations
Microsoft will be taking a page from Google playbook. Google has be gradually reducing the “openness” of their android platform. They now have these “security checks” enforced on android. Meaning that it’s trivial for an application to determine if the phone a “genuine android” or not.
This’ll trickle into webbrowser too (if it’s not already in browsers like chrome). It’s only a matter of time before web pages will be able to determine if they’re running on a “secure OS” and fail to run. It’ll start out with your banking website, then expand to shopping websites, ultimately every page will enforce it (“oh, I see you have an unauthorized browser plug in installed. We care about your security, therefore we won’t run. Please restore your device to it’s secure defaults.”)
This future is so horrible and Linux with its 4% market share won’t change anything.
Agreed.
And what’s particularly galling about this is that it’s never made any sense to me. Are you telling me an Android app, on compromised hardware or otherwise, could send malformed data that would for instance deposit $1M into my bank account? That doesn’t sound like an issue of local security. An app is just a frontend, all validation would still be through the banking infrastructure.
You’re making up scenarios so you can get outraged over them and push linux lol.
Hey man, yeah, I get it. I worry a lot about sounding like a conspiracy theorist; a real Chicken Little.
But when I look internally and ask myself why I make these posts, why I conspire so much about unknown futures, I come to two most likely outcomes:
- I’m trying to trick you into installing Linux for some reason. Selfishly I guess if there’s a larger userbase demanding support for things then I can expect better support for myself. Or I’m just trying to sound like a pompous smartass in front of internet strangers. But those are a little obtuse.
- I see a bunch of people standing in what I perceive (possibly incorrectly, but nonetheless) a trap and I’m shouting, “Hey, get outta there now before it springs!” because I have general empathy towards other people.
Worst case I’m wrong and I look a fool. I really don’t have a problem with that. I know who I’d trust if the positions were switched 💯
TPM was known to be a DRM Trojan horse in 2004. Then everyone forgot about that fact.
Sure, pushing Linux is just a new angle, but don’t think for a second that TPM has any purpose other than making your own computer trust a cabal of corporations over you, the owner. And if there is a critical mass of TPM standardized hardware, such that a “trusted” environment is the standard, it will lock you out of major use cases on all “untrusted” systems, including Linux.
And that deserves a lot of outrage.
Didn’t Apple brick ipods if they had pirated audio files?
Didn’t Microsoft push a few updates that BSOD Windows OS if you weren’t setup for their OneDrive cloud?
Doesnt seem very made up.
I had an ipod that was filled with “pirated” (ripped) audio files, never owned a single itunes purchased song, and have used Windows on many computers that didnt have OneDrive setup and never experienced either of those.
Do you have some sources for those cause I’d be interested to read about them.
This may come to shock you but not everyone has the same experiences as you.
Which is why I asked you for some sources for your claims. I told you my experience and that I’d never heard of what you’re saying happened.
So do you have any sources or did you just make it up?
I currently have a modded iPod mini with 128Gb of music, around 1Gb of which was bought from iTunes.
It works perfectly fine. Remarkably so, in fact. Damn things 20 years old, I can plug it into my M2 Macbook and sync music like always.
Strange cause that must be bricked according to the person I replied to lol
Apple are shithouses under Cook, but they’re not that bad.
Yet.
